Open Thread!
Is it just me, or are people taking things way too seriously when the President cannot make a speech to schoolchildren without it causing an uproar?
This is an open thread. What's on your mind?
Submitted by Purpleface on Tue, 2009-09-08 12:54
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Then v Now
It's just so easy, spending other people's money
.......
But of course we have good reason to spend all this. Of course we do. Don't we?
"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." --R. Heinlein
Obama is such a hypocrite
Voting to block the debt ceiling then and now asking that it be raised.
I wonder what happened in between, o6 and o9 that could possibly have changed minds?
You absolutely can not argue in good faith that the economic circumstances then, are equal to the economic circumstances now.
There are dramatic and drastic differences in the o6 casino style smoke and mirrors economy, that sneered at regulation, and cheered for lower and lower interest rates from the feds, that tanked the US economy.
The harsh reality of coping with the consequences of the casino mentality that melted our financial system and cost tons of jobs, where neither the 800 Billion dollar price tag for Medicare Part D (which was never even questioned) or the Trillion+ cost of the war in Iraq, were not added into the budget, to the state of the US economy today, is not an equal comparison.
I'm only half stupid
Where'd everybody go?
I've been recovering from neck surgery so I have half an excuse. I had to lay on my back the entire month of August with nothing but access to Family Feud, Cash Cab, Price is Right, and the 24-hr news cycle (with the occasional Warehouse 13 and Eureka when I could stay up long enough). So I caught all the mess...Funny how the death panels and government-hands-off-my-Medicare arguments sound while in a hospital bed next to someone getting quality care via Medicare.
Now, on the tail end of recovery, I feel like I've returned to SC and it seems its the blog that Time forgot. Is there a strike? OTOH, thanks Purpleface, Stinerman, and crew for holding down the fort. Fill me in--what'd I miss?
http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186
Glad you recovering
A month in bed with nothing but TV <shudders> I hope you're feeling much better now.
"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." --R. Heinlein
Surfing Ebay....
and I found this
Priceless.
"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." --R. Heinlein
Wow! It's great to see
all the deeply intellectual debate going on here, under the new and improved guidelines.
Very enlightening dialogue!
And it's all non-partisan and civil. How great is that!
It's all so much more, er fun now.
I'm only half stupid
Still here, sorta
I've obviously been not real into this whole political discussion thing lately. Still poke my head in to see what other people are saying, but mostly I don't see the point in talking about it anymore, sadly. I found myself in the car this afternoon and decided to take a listen to what "El Rushbo" had to say. I wanted to see how long it took before he said something unbelievably stupid. Answer: about 20 seconds:
Unfortunately this kind of stupidity seems to be rampant on the right these days. Any move away from the extreme hard right towards a more reasonable, centrist policy becomes the equivalent of Stalin telling your child what he is going to be when he grows up. Feh. It is boring and pointless to argue with such nonsense.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
the Democrats aren't without blame, either.
There's also been a great deal of stupidity on the part of the Democrats, including the new POTUS,in caving into the Republican pressure and going in lock step with them in pretty much everything, including funding for our War on Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as supporting the FISA Bill, and more. As nasty as the Republicans have been, the Democrats, with few exceptions, I'm sorry to say, have been their enablers. Therefore, the Democratic Party isn't blameless, either.
Stupidity on all sides
Plenty of stupidity on the left, too.
As far as that specific quote goes, there are valid intelligent points to be made there -- namely, about the collectivism of *mandatory* community service, and the silliness of so much of what passes as "community service" these days, and the idea that someone like me "serves his community" far more effectively through his job (where I'm busy inventing and productizing new technologies that will benefit billions of people) than by, say, picking up litter by the highway. The quote itself is silly, but if we just want to pick on silly things people said, we're not contributing much to the discussion ourselves.
And if you think that our current policy is "extreme hard right"... sorry, get real! These days, a lot of supposedly "socialist" European countries have economic policies that would be written off as right-wing crazy talk in the supposedly "capitalist" United States. Look at how aggressively they've all been cutting their corporate tax rates, even under left-wing governments. Perhaps I should say that "any move away from the extreme hard left towards a more reasonable, centrist policy [on corporate tax rates] becomes the equivalent of eating the poor."
It's no longer "community service"...
...it's more like government ordered labor.
as for silly (stupid) things politicians say...
...ad infinitum....
Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!
It is literally true
that Israel is a friend of Israel's. We should all acknowledge Israel's lack of self-loathing, for the most part. The Nancy Reagan thing was funny, if not polite.
Ok, a few misplaced words, and confusing the number of primaries with the number of states. What exactly is so objectionable with calling Hillary "likeable enough"? Was he being too generous?
See, I would distinguish between the occasional wrong or poor choice of words, and the lack of basic syntax. Obama, as far as I can tell, has never had trouble putting food on his family. And his wings do take dream!
Vilifying community service
First off let's make it clear that there is no requirement that community service be *mandatory*.
You are free to promote serving your community through your job, which you described in altruistic terms inventing products that will benefit masses of people.
It is not up to you to impose your will against those who chose community service as a personal choice.
When you make claims denigrating community service or misrepresenting it as *mandatory* you are in essence promoting the limitation of freedom against those who chose a path of altruism other than your own.
I'm only half stupid
Think so ...?
Think so
...?
Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!
I don't take much stock
in those crazy conspiracy theories promoted by Cleon Skousan, the inspiration for Glenn Beck's 9-12 project.
You have to hand it to Glenn and his pals for being inspired to patriotic weeping, by the rantings of the Cleon, who was too far right for even the John Birch society.
Public service is good. It isn't a shadowy plot inspired by the Jooooos, and Rahm Emanuel to put you into a nazi internment camp.
But hey, if that turns your crank, run with it.
I'm only half stupid
I think its cool if...
...it is just good old fashioned volunteerism, hey I have my own gigs I support and work for free of charge, my wife has a whole bunch, but when it goes to a point where one is being coerced to do it to reap some essential benefit, or it becomes compulsory, I balk.
By the way, how are things in Florida ML? I have checked in from time to time and see you've been holding down the fort for the most part pretty consistently, I'm glad to see that, if for no other reason then to piss off BR... ;-)
Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!
You might be You might be a racist...
www.patriotpost.us
Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!
Blame Reagan for #1
Some people's hyperbole's aside:
Maybe people just don't live in real America if they aren't seeing enough open racism to cause some concern.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
A poor excuse
http://hisvorpal.wordpress.com/2009/09/09/health-ins-vp-sends-obama-hate...
I'm only half stupid
Payroll Parodies
Dose swilly democwats...
Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!
Simplistically beautiful.
Another lazy hack trying to get friendly with the libertarian crowd. Probably dreaming about a Heritage fellowship so he/she can live on corporate-funded welfare forever.
Well lets just think about that for a sec...
Despite the unpopular reputation banks and bankers currently possess, the industry has on the whole done some rather positive things over the last couple hundred years in this country. And private enterprise has a pretty impressive track record in its own right.
Our Federal Government on the other hand...well no so much...
Outside of its Constitutional duties, what does it really have to show for itself...
Well, a bankrupted SS? That in the name of offering folks a substandard retirement has become the most burdensome and expensive tax in history. Or a failing education system? Even by ones lowest expectations it is an embarrassment. How about the secretive Fed? They have in all likelihood sunk out economy for decades. Oh, I know, the IRS, the most complicated tax code on the planet, so much so that those that write it don't even understand or obey it.
The forms you filled out at the bank were more than likely not the bureaucratic whims of the bank, but federally required documentation, and the DMV is run by the smaller State government...That should tell ya something right there... ;-)
Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!
SS isn't bankrupt
it has a trust fund that is still growing, unlike nearly everything else. Its revenue is highly dependant on the performance of the overall economy. Pre-SS, a large percentage of seniors died in poverty. Now almost none of them do.
The Federal Government ran and won World War II. I'd call that pretty impressive. Our education system sucks, yes. I'm not sure why, and vouchers and government don't explain it. Two of the most socialized and secular countries in the world, Holland and Sweden, have the highest performing education systems. Maybe Americans just aren't into book learnin'. Or more likely, quantifiable measures of education only substantially benefits those in advanced, specialized fields. There are many possible reasons the American economy outperforms its educational system.
Banking worked reasonably well as long as its excesses were reigned in by regulation, enforcement and maybe most importantly, prevailing standards of behavior. Then a bunch of Reaganite scam artists started undermining the system with silly catchphrases like "greed is good" and the general belief that you can create wealth without creating value.
Now now now...I said constitutional duties...
WWII was as constitutional as any war ever will be.
SS is bankrupt
.
We agree education is a big problem, but I'd say since many of the worlds most desirable and internationally attended universities are private and in this country, we are definately into book learning.
Banking worked well until it was over regulated and required to do things like make nonsensible loans to unqualified borrowers against every long held banking principle that has ever existed.
Greed is not good, however ambition, and a drive to succeed are. We paint with too wide a brush these folks for the most part.
I think at this point my assertion certainly holds true.
Good to talk to you after so long, how have you been?
Health care at the DMV? Now serving number 33,573,901
Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!
The shame
Under the current system, those people wouldn't have to stand in line, they'd just stay at home untreated, none of the pesky line waiting.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Umm....or they could do what I do, or PF does, or...
...anyone does who chooses self responsibility over gross personal incompetence.
Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!
Not everyone has that choice
of being able to afford health care. Especially as the costs go up 8 to 10 percent a year. That is the detail that you are missing.
Is your measure of worth (gross personal incompetence) as a human being predicated on whether or not you can afford the rising cost of health insurance?
It couldn't be that service is ridiculously over priced. No way. It's obviously the fault of the customers who can't afford the services.
I'm only half stupid
I'm all for lowering the cost of health care ML...
...and making it more accessible.
But this health care plan is far from simply addressing those two important issues, it goes way beyond that.
The Baucus bill is yet another example of the left using a situation that could use some improvement, and just being unable to resist turning it into a complete bureaucratic cluster ____.
Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!
How do you know?
Have you read the bill? Further it is not THE final bill.
I would agree that the issue is complex, and would be happy to simplify it.
How about we start with repealing the Sherman anti-trust exemptions that apply to health insurance companies. Then mandate that health insurance must be non-profit. Period.
Investment insurance companies masquerading as banks came into being in an atmosphere of decades of deregulation.
At present the health insurance industry and insurance generally has become a monster, that is bigger than the government. It is killing the American economy with privatized taxes or fees, unfettered from any real market principles because there is no real competition amongst providers.
I'm only half stupid
Hardly Dear...
The US Government is largest entity to ever inhabit the earth. It has found its way into almost every aspect of our lives. It is the largest;
Please, be awake enough to at least acknowledge the real monster in the room is the Federal Government.
Some Insurance Companies have grown to be large corporations sure, but are dwarfed by the gargantuan size of our government!
And in terms efficiency or cost of service, it pails in comparison.
Do you realize this "free" health care will cost me 8K a year because I make more than 60K a year. Or I can pay 1K in the form of a fine to forgo it.
And what sense does it make for those who pay the fine, then get sick and can be assured acceptance with pre-existing conditions to carry it anyway? That's how they're supposed to fund the thing.
Its like saying you don't have car insurance then after the accident you call your agent and ask for a policy to cover the accident!
You do understand that our Federal Government does not manufacture products or operate profitably from services provided right? It's you and me that make all this craziness possible, just little ole you and little ole me, and all our neighbors and friends that pay for ALL this!
It's a complete disaster.
Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!
"The Largest Entity"?
Well, if the USA as represented by 'we the people' who are the US government and you say that the US government is the biggest entity on the face of the earth, isn't that good news? Shouldn't we be proud of that? It must be a good brand!
We told the Iraqi's that the US model was the brand to buy, to appeal to them to accept the grizzly disruption of bringing a US style democracy into their lives, military style. Is that a case of our government being just too too big?
The US government does stimulate the manufacture of products. Private companies manufacture things for the US government all the time. Ask Boeing and Lockheed Martin.
The problem is the corruption. That is why we have laws. That is why we need laws that are fair. That is why you can't have a fair system unless the law is enforced.
You can not determine the cost of your health insurance if reform passes, because it hasn't passed yet, and you don't know all of the specific details. The goal is to make it more competitive and therefore more affordable.
None of it will be 'free', and I suppose this is why lots of folks are complaining. The key is to make sure that there is real competition for price, that will help bring the cost down. That is the hard part. Setting a mandate that everyone must buy health insurance, without any competition, would be a gift to the insurance companies.
You should complain about the extra cost you are paying now for those who don't have insurance and go to the emergency room for routine care. That is a cost that the insurance companies are passing on to you with higher fees and higher deductibles.
I'm only half stupid
Oh my, oh my, oh my....
Lets ask Walter E. Williams...
Gotta luv old Walt!
Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!
Mr. Williams argument
is a leaky bucket that doesn't hold water.
You can carry water in Mr. Williams bucket, if you like. I think you will find yourself getting awfully thirsty.
According to your rules, be sure not to ask me to share one drop of water from my non-leaky bucket, with you or any member of your family. It will cause laziness and it is not an enumerated power in the constitution and will trample on my freedom.
There are legitimate issues to debate, but turning the discussion to some fantasy conspiracy theory that you have lost your 'liberty' because (we have a democratic president) you think the government now controls you is so ludicrous that it negates the possibility of any future for a reasonable discussion.
Good luck.
I'm only half stupid
We can share our water...
...but that is not the governments role.
It is the role of people, churches, non-profits, charities, and the like.
Its sort of like this, ask not what your government can do for you, but what you can't do for yourself.
This whole insanity is just some magnificent mind numbing and aspiration quelling exercise in dragging the whole country down to its lowest common denominator, and nothing less.
Yes, people need help. Yes, we all want access to reasonable health care. Yes, we need checks and balances in business. But what we don't need is to suckle on the tit of some omnipotent federal bureaucracy in order to achieve those things.
In fact, truth be told, it couldn't be more to the contrary!
And just one more note ML.
I did not infer anything about Republican or Democratic leadership, or lack thereof. I simply am addressing the facts as they exist, if you are so self conscious about the fact that this democratic president is making such radical miss-steps in leading the country at the moment, well, now you know how Repubs felt in the years that just past.
By the way, for what it's worth, though I certainly had more respect for his professed core political sensibilities, I was equally dismayed by GW's unconstitutional activities.
Lets just leave how bad the respective parties may or may not be out of this until a topic that directly warrants such comments emerges, shall we.
Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!
Sharing water isn't that simple
Sharing water actually does fall under the governments role, both state and federal, as the question of ownership and user rights is constantly being brought to court to solve disputes, over use, pollution and sharing, in the name of commerce and the commons.
This country was founded in response to the British monopoly on imports that restricted fair competition.
When monopolies become so powerful that they subvert the democratic process, by price fixing, price gauging, bribery, cooking the books or false advertising, the only resource available to break them up is the power of the federal government. That is it's proper role. Our country was founded to break up a monopoly.
It is a lazy man's argument to invoke the tenth amendment with such a broad brush and a narrow view, with no historical perspective. This argument is traditionally brought to the forefront during times of change and under democratic Presidents.
I'm only half stupid
Water was being used as a metaphor ML...
As I said, we need some regulation.
But here again your mind just naturally defaults to;
And then there is this tid bit of liberal snobbery;
This goes so far beyond simply the 10th ammendment, it is an assult on the very question of whether Congress is any longer bound by the Constitution at all, or if now they actually just do what they like while we just stand by and cheer or sneer if one party gets enough votes - regardless if its Constitutional or not!
But this is all seemingly beyond you or your ability to grasp virtually anything outside of what's covered in the huffington post or on D/Kos.
Oh well.
Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!
More reasons to ask yourself WTF is going on...
...it seems we are now spending millions of dollars to supplement the massage and hair and nail industry
, in the Tampa Bay area, on the very face of it it appears ridiculous enough, however even if one is inclined to spin it in some positive direction there is one core idea that fails to impress...and so here from the St. Petersburg Times we get a dose of the real liability in all this nonsense...
I yi yi...
Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!
Oh c'mon
If we'd spent the money extending unemployment you'd have blasted that as a handout.
People training to become masseuses and nail technicians are most likely from low-income backgrounds and benefit the most from tuition assistance. Who are most likely facing bleak employment prospects through no fault of their own. And you could probably say the same for construction jobs, what with the terrible housing market. Is the thinking that these are frivolous or wasteful professions?
Better they remain unskilled and on welfare?
As investigative stories on government waste go, this is awfully weak.
Hi Corph
Ya I would of... The marketplace is by far the best arbiter of where jobs need to be created, and who does them.
Government meddling only complicates peoples lives by in this instance setting them up for failure.
The reality is if there are no jobs, there are no jobs, and spending more money to train people who would gladly be something else but will be trained as a nail spa technician because the government is training them for free to work in sectors where there are no jobs, is a waste of our money and peoples time.
Get over this the government can spend our way out of this mess obsession.
Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!
Sorry, your way has been tried.
The years 1929 to 1933 were not pleasant. Individual self-interest cannot break negative feedback cycles.
OK see, if there are no jobs, and we're not willing to let people starve, we might as well put them to work on public works, or train them in a skill that will improve their prospects once the job market picks up.
Some day you will realize that there are important goals we need to achieve collectively; critically important aspects of our economy that self-interested entrepreneurs won't touch.
Of course Government can screw up, misallocate resources and aggravate problems. That doesn't mean countercyclical spending is bad in itself. Conservatives constantly conflate the ideas "The Government is not doing its job optimally" with "Government should not be involved".
4 years of economic malaise does not a bad system make...;-)
We've been doing this thing for hundreds of years now. And the record is clear. If you want to Rahm Emanuel this thing to death do it I suppose, after all why let a good problem pass unmolested...
It is not a "conservative" thing so much as a reasonable thing Corph.
What is reasonable here?
Taking over GM and screwing the guys who invested their money to thank the unions for their support regardless of it was the outrageous demands the unions have placed upon the automakers that sunk them in the first place?
Is it reasonable to run up what is estimated to become a 9 TRILLION dollar debt in large part on what most even minded folks would consider frivolous and unwarranted?
Is it reasonable to in a economic downturn require cap and trade on businesses that are just trying to get by and keep the people who are employed to stay employed?
Is it reasonable to...oh never mind you get the point....or maybe you don't...but it makes it no less true regardless.
It's been a pretty good ride in America up to this point, could we have done better in some areas, sure, like we shouldn't have institutionalized a whole race of people by locking them down in housing projects and giving them only the very basic of needs (+ cable TV) as to quell any aspiration they may possess, and instead we should have treated them like worthy capable individuals who are equally viable as productive citizens.
But I am sure you will cite racism and fail to understand that your beloved welfare state is the greatest exercise in racism perhaps the world has ever seen!
You miss the true role of government as it relates to the human condition, and yearn for some nanny state where the great motivations of life are homogenized into some pretty little package with a bow on top.
Anyway...
Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!
Golly
A few of those institutionalized welfare cases escaped the projects, got a good education and became productive citizens.
Barack Obama, Eric Holder, James Clyburn and Sonya Sotomayor threw off their shackles and broke free. Yet we still hear the cries that they are unworthy, undeserving even arrogant if they dare to take pride in their accomplishments.
I'm only half stupid
Boy, what an accomplishment...however...
...it's hardly representative of an incomprehensibly dismal success rate, but, I guess when you're batting the kind of average you do in the welfare game...you really just gotta take what you can get, huh ML?
It's bittersweet seeing your mind so tightly wrapped around such pretense, as it would actually be funny if it weren't so tragically poignant.
Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!
A dose of reality... ;-)
...and the reality sucks...
Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!
Surprise, surprise, surprise...
Hey, whats another TRILLION
when you're Barack Obama?
Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!
We've got the debt, and we're gonna pay for it big time...
...but where's the recovery
?
Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!
Cheneyied
The road to freedom is lined with tax cuts and deficits don't matter. We've heard that same tune for decades, which is how we got to the catastrophic market collapse of Sept. 08. OH wait, suddenly deficits matter. I didn't hear the right squawking about deficits during the Bush years.
How much does the deficit matter to you if you use the debt for more soldiers in Afghanistan. Would debt for war be just peachy?
It's fascinating yet preposterous that the same ideological advice that got us into this hole is now being proposed as a way to dig us out.
I even heard a mild note of panic in Rush Limbaugh's voice the other day, when a caller suggested how dreamy it would be if Republicans took back a majority so they could be responsible. "What!" said Rush with a startled tone. Republicans would be responsible?
I'm only half stupid