Tis Turkey Day -- Open Thread

Who's cooking?  I'm not this year; we're going out, to a local hotel's affaire.  That way I don't feel too guilty about making someone work on Thanksgiving.

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catching 4 or 5 different groups of people on Thanksgiving.

But I won't be cooking Thanksgiving day.  Cooked a 1/2 ham this weekend & will roast a turkey next weekend.  I love leftovers from the holidays.  Hot open face turkey, stuffing on toast covered in gravy.  Mmmmmm.

But we will be making the rounds Thursday.  Nothing farther than 30 miles away though.

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Thanksgiving Day:

 My oldest nephew came from school in NY and spend Thanksgiving with our whole family.  Instead of turkey, we had two fresh roasted ducks, lots of vegetables, potatoes, and two kinds of cakes for dessert ;  homemade chocolate pound cake (made by me, of course), and homemade applecake that was baked by my sister-in-law.  Need I mention pumpkin pie and stuffing, and cranberry sauce, which I also made.?

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Obama's approval rating continues to slide ...

Obama's Approval Slide Finds Whites Down to 39%

I guess 61% of whites must be racist...

 

Meta: This post is not a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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You Betcha

You should see what some people say to my black avatar on yahoo euchre though...

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Well

According to some, a lot of white Obama supporters are racists too.  There's one old-school race warrior on Daily Kos who incessantly repeats an anectode about an old white southerner who apparenly said "I'm voting for the n*gger", in order to make the point that white Obama voters are still likely to be racists.  My support for Obama notwithstanding, I've been called a racist numerous times over there and have been trollrated almost to the point of banning for my supposedly racist views.  Believe me, defending yourself by saying that you support Obama would be evidence to this kind of hard-core race warrior that you ARE a racist, much like they would see a white person who says they have "many black firends" as a racist.* 

So I think the 61% rate of white racism is a little low, if you go by the opinion of the people you are implicating.  It's probably closer to 70%-80% of whites that are racists.

 

*I once opined that a white person who says defensively that they have "many black friends" is merely exhibiting tackiness, not racism.  The view, needless to say, was HIGHLY unpopular anongst the assembled race police. 

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Ouch!!

 70-80% of Whites here in the United States are racist??  Isn't that a little bit high?  I think so.

What are some ways that people can be racist that you could come up with, skymutt?  Just curious.

 

So, anybody who didn't vote for Barack Obama, is against or even questions mandated school busing  or hails from a place like Southie or Charlestown, or even Philadephia's Kensington section, or Brooklyn's Bensonhurst is automatically a racist?  

 

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Climategate ...

For anyone who is interested in at least one reason why the climate skeptics are skeptical, I suggest that you fully read this most excellent overview of the whole FOIA (Freedom Of Information Act) debacle that is the climate science community:

The people -vs- the CRU: Freedom of information, my okole…

Read the whole thing.  Is this how "real scientists" are supposed to act?  Why are they hiding their data and how they manipulated it to produce a "result" that we are expected to accept on face value?  I'm sorry, but that's not science.

If others can't replicate your results then they are, by any reasonable scientific definition, meaningless and completely moot.  Yet people want to cripple all human progress based on something that even the people involved can't replicate.

I also recommend that you skim through the following file and read the comments then decide for yourself if this CRU dataset is likely to be the "world class scientific" organization that you somehow imagine them to be ...

The HARRY_READ_ME.txt file

Really inspires confidence in the data that is being used to change the lives of everyone on the planet. no?  Where's the traceability from the raw data to the final output?  I don't think that they could reproduce their own results at this point.  It's truly embarassing IMHO.

 

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I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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Bad timing

If I weren't leaving (and not taking my computer with me, dammit!) for a nice long Thanksgiving weekend, I'd take the time to work up a deserving reply. A quick perusal of the HARRY_READ_ME file reminds me of what anyone goes through when faced with computer code inherited from previous programmers. A nightmare by any standards. I couldn't even imagine dealing with something as complex as this appears to be, with multitudinous non-standard inputs from different countries. Yuck! At least he appears to be doing his honest best to figure out all the various issues he is encountering.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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I don't disagree with your assessment ...

but is admitting that it is a total mess, acknowledging that they don't understand what they have, and simply throwing your hands up and saying well at least they're trying ... really supposed to inspire confidence in the output?  I know it doesn't for me, and THAT's the point.

Should we alter the global economy based on what a bunch if disorganized spaghetti hackers are churning out?  Where's the version control?  Where's the quality control?  This looks for all the world like stuff you would expect people to be doing on their laptops at home as a hobby, not something that is supposed to be coming out of a multi-million dollar world class operation, or do you disagree?

I'll await your reply after turkey day!  :)

 

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As if this changes

 your mind?

 Those who promote clean water, and breathable air, or as evangelicals like to say, taking good care of the house the God gave us, are un-phased with the never ending flood of anti-environmental talking points from the right.

 

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Of course it doesn't change my mind ...

it only reinforces what I have thought about this topic all along.  The question is, does this change your view of the quality of the work that is being used to alter the course of the world economy?

 

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A physics-based climatology link

Found this via the Free Speech Zone, and thought it was interesting.   A physicist examines the climate change problem from his field's POV.

The basic premise: reducing energy consumption is not physically possible.    However, his thesis doesn't rule out our discovery of say, a radically efficient and effective way of converting sunlight into usable energy.

An interesting POV.

 

 

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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Wow, an excellent article.

He hits the nail pretty squarely on the head in my opinion.  Our current standard of living is directly tied to energy consumption.  If we reduce the consumption of energy we will necessarily decrease our collective standard of living.

He also brings up a good point on the paradox of conservation.  When we increase the efficiency of our energy use or we conserve to reduce it this, economically speaking, reduces the demand and therefore the price of that energy.  But what happens when you reduce the price of a commodity like energy?  Consumption actually rises because it is more affordable.

 

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I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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Silly GR. Just because you insist global warming isn't happening

or isn't human activity fortified doesn't mean A) Global Warming isn't human fortified, B) that even if you can point to 10 M others who agree that GW is a myth makes your position any less salient

Look here in todays SF Chronicle:www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi "Jellyfish causing havoc for Asian fishermen"

"Once considered a rarity occurring every 40 years, jellyfish swarms are now an almost annual occurrence along several thousand kilometers of Japanese coast, and far beyond Japan...Increasingly polluted waters - off China, for example - boost growth of the microscopic plankton upon which "jellies" feed, and overfishing has eliminated many of the jellyfish's predators and cut down on competitors for plankton feed....scientist Shin-ichi Uye, Japan's leading expert on the problem, concluded China's coastal waters offered a perfect breeding ground: Agricultural and sewage runoff are spurring plankton growth, and fish catches are declining. The waters of the Yellow Sea, meanwhile, have warmed as much as 3 degrees Fahrenheit over the past quarter century."

Here's my beef with your position, particularly the so called 'conservative principle' you stand for.  My family's conservative views were that you left the next generation better able to handle the world than the last.  You leave them better off and that doesn't mean you leave them money so much as an education, a chance at working hard and making a good life.  You by contrast say that regulations 'take' from business profits which is wrong.  You are putting the wellbeing of your children & ancestors future at risk for current profits.  Then you mischaracterize the progressive view as wanting to stop growth, industry and development completely.  We don't.  We do want those things but we want them to proceed in conjunction with a sustainable environment, not an unsustainable one.  All models have shown that sustainable systems are more expensive than a laise faire system where there are no regulations.  So, ya know, I disagree with you, fudamentally and morally.  And for that matter I disagree that your views are really conservative.  Really they are more just an acceptance that greed and selfishness are OK views.  I don't agree.

My kids are going to have a better planet.  I am not going to let you rape & pillage my planet for immeidate profits and put my kids futures at risk.  That isn't conservatism speaking.

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What does this have to do with climate change?

Your post seems to be focused on:

- Chinese polution is fertilizing the plankton.

- Increased plankton = increased jelly fish.

- Overfishing has reduced the number of jellyfish predators.

- Decreased predators = increased jelly fish.

Ergo, we now see more jellyfish.

Personally, if we accept your premises I don't find the conclusion particularly surprising ... but I fail to discern the connection between this jelly fish story and the climate change science I was discussing.  Could you please help me out a little by articulating the connection?

 

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I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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More climategate ...

*sigh* it is becoming appallingly clear to even the average non-programmer lay person exactly why the CRU has been refusing to release their "data" and their "code":

Climategate: hide the decline – codified

All you have to do is read the comments.  They can't release the datasets because anyone trying to use them would get different results due to the fact that they have been artificailly removing individual data items from them, artificially modifying them, etc. and so they would be exposed.  They can't release the code because, well, that would expose their artifical manipulations as well.

This is science?  Not by a long shot.  If there are legitimate reasons for these manipulations then they should be documented and scrutinized, not illegally witheld from FOIA requests.  The science stands on it's own and doesn't need to be covered up.  If they are right then the methods and results will speak for themselves.  Transparency is key to legitimacy in science and these people are anything BUT being transparent.

 

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I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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Ooh it's a "gate" now!

This should test the power of the right-wing noise machine.  I'm gonna go look up the polling numbers on climate change and see if this pseudoscandal moves it two months from now.

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So this is how Obama treats the people in the trenches?

Navy SEALs Face Assault Charges for Capturing Most-Wanted Terrorist :

Navy SEALs have secretly captured one of the most wanted terrorists in Iraq — the alleged mastermind of the murder and mutilation of four Blackwater USA security guards in Fallujah in 2004. And three of the SEALs who captured him are now facing criminal charges, sources told FoxNews.com.

The three, all members of the Navy's elite commando unit, have refused non-judicial punishment — called an admiral's mast — and have requested a trial by court-martial.

Ahmed Hashim Abed, whom the military code-named "Objective Amber," told investigators he was punched by his captors — and he had the bloody lip to prove it.

Now, instead of being lauded for bringing to justice a high-value target, three of the SEAL commandos, all enlisted, face assault charges and have retained lawyers.

The guy murders, mutilates four security guards, drags their bodies through the city, and hangs the bodies on a bridge for propaganda purposes, and now the SEALs are facing charges for a punch?  Even assuming the punch wasn't tecnically necessary, I mean, really?

Watch out guys, Obama is right behind you ... and he's got a knife pointed right at you back.  Pathetic.  Is there any doubt that Obama is on the terrorist's side here?  Public trials in NYC... Filing charges against the people capturing them ...

<Shakes Head in Disbelief>

 

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Wow so many hits

And they all link to the same propaganda machine source (Fox).  If you don't mind I'll reserve judgement on the accuracy of the reporting until an actual news outfit can do an independant invenstigation.

Until then, assuming it's accurate (stopped clock, etc.)  did you notice the three were also charged with making false official statements?  Nothing pisses off military investigators like being lied to, whether or not they might have looked the other way on a little roughing up of such a slimeball.

Assuming they got the right guy, of course.

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Meh

If they beat the guy once he was already detained, and there is proof of it, then they should be disciplined.  If they didn't beat the prisoner, then they should be cleared of charges.  Whether the prisoner was a high-value target or some nobody is irrelevant.  Beating a prisoner is against both U.S. military law and international law no matter who it is or what they've done.  

At any rate, the Fox News report doesn't have nearly enough detail to make a judgment as to the soldiers' guilt or innocence.

 

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The markets

 cheerleaders response to a TIME magazines article mentioning the difficulties faced during this decade. The suggestion is not met well by the players.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=1341823165&play=1

 Is it just me or are these folks insulted by the suggestion that the markets failed... ? Calling for more personal responsibility, and a less short sighted vision, the players are again insulted and blame the war on terror?

 Pretty arrogant, if you ask me. I don't get the attitude. 

 

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Climate change: this is the worst scientific scandal of our ...

Climate change: this is the worst scientific scandal of our generation

Our hopelessly compromised scientific establishment cannot be allowed to get away with the Climategate whitewash, says Christopher Booker.

...

The reason why even the Guardian's George Monbiot has expressed total shock and dismay at the picture revealed by the documents is that their authors are not just any old bunch of academics. Their importance cannot be overestimated, What we are looking at here is the small group of scientists who have for years been more influential in driving the worldwide alarm over global warming than any others, not least through the role they play at the heart of the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC).

...

The senders and recipients of the leaked CRU emails constitute a cast list of the IPCC's scientific elite, including not just the "Hockey Team", such as Dr Mann himself, Dr Jones and his CRU colleague Keith Briffa, but Ben Santer, responsible for a highly controversial rewriting of key passages in the IPCC's 1995 report; Kevin Trenberth, who similarly controversially pushed the IPCC into scaremongering over hurricane activity; and Gavin Schmidt, right-hand man to Al Gore's ally Dr James Hansen, whose own GISS record of surface temperature data is second in importance only to that of the CRU itself.

There are three threads in particular in the leaked documents which have sent a shock wave through informed observers across the world. Perhaps the most obvious, as lucidly put together by Willis Eschenbach (see McIntyre's blog Climate Audit and Anthony Watt's blog Watts Up With That), is the highly disturbing series of emails which show how Dr Jones and his colleagues have for years been discussing the devious tactics whereby they could avoid releasing their data to outsiders under freedom of information laws.

...

But the question which inevitably arises from this systematic refusal to release their data is – what is it that these scientists seem so anxious to hide? The second and most shocking revelation of the leaked documents is how they show the scientists trying to manipulate data through their tortuous computer programmes, always to point in only the one desired direction – to lower past temperatures and to "adjust" recent temperatures upwards, in order to convey the impression of an accelerated warming. This comes up so often (not least in the documents relating to computer data in the Harry Read Me file) that it becomes the most disturbing single element of the entire story. This is what Mr McIntyre caught Dr Hansen doing with his GISS temperature record last year (after which Hansen was forced to revise his record), and two further shocking examples have now come to light from Australia and New Zealand.

...

The third shocking revelation of these documents is the ruthless way in which these academics have been determined to silence any expert questioning of the findings they have arrived at by such dubious methods – not just by refusing to disclose their basic data but by discrediting and freezing out any scientific journal which dares to publish their critics' work. It seems they are prepared to stop at nothing to stifle scientific debate in this way, not least by ensuring that no dissenting research should find its way into the pages of IPCC reports.

Climate change data dumped

SCIENTISTS at the University of East Anglia (UEA) have admitted throwing away much of the raw temperature data on which their predictions of global warming are based.

It means that other academics are not able to check basic calculations said to show a long-term rise in temperature over the past 150 years.

The UEA’s Climatic Research Unit (CRU) was forced to reveal the loss following requests for the data under Freedom of Information legislation.

The data were gathered from weather stations around the world and then adjusted to take account of variables in the way they were collected. The revised figures were kept, but the originals — stored on paper and magnetic tape — were dumped to save space when the CRU moved to a new building.

...

What more can I say?  This kind of speaks for itself.  What real scientists act like this?  What real scientists "throw away" their raw data?  It's ludicrous.

Bottom line, the CRU climate record is now useless and completely discredited.  They now admit that they made "adjustments" to their raw figures and everything else is based on those results.  Of course no one can say how or what changes were actually made, or verify that they were made correctly because there is no way to compare the raw data to the "adjusted data".  They may as well have made up the entire underlying dataset as far as anyone can confirm.

Of course the skeptics were skeptical all along because the alarmists refused to allow their results to be properly reviewed by independent sources, preferring instead of game the system by insuring that only their friends were used as reviewers.  How convenient.

 

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I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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feh

 The only people endlessly ringing this bell are those like yourself who are loathe to go green.

 The right issued a fatwa against the science on global warming a long time ago. These stolen e-mails  are the cause of much glee on the right, but in the larger debate I don't think much has changed.

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"Climategate"

This whole thing appears to be pretty damaging to a couple of scientists, for sure. Phil Jones should resign, at the very least. I suppose he may have some explanation for some of the things he wrote (the bit about deleting emails is, I'd say, the worst thing in there) but I'm not going to try to make excuses for him. Sack him.

It isn't particularly compelling evidence of any kind of giant conspiracy, or "proof" that AGW is a hoax, though. It perhaps dings a couple of lines of evidence, out of the hundreds that are out there. You seem to think this is something of a nail in the coffin, yet you probably don't care much about the many many more documented cases of fabrication, fraud and deceit by "climate denialists." 

As far as the data being "destroyed" that's just another example of deceit from "your side." The data was tossed by UEA, sure, but they got it in the first place from meteorological services around the world, and it is all still there. Huge amounts of data are completely open and available to the public.

It is basically the same as it ever was from you and folks like you. Overwhelming evidence against your position is disregarded, while the one or two bits that support you are elevated to the utmost importance and become the justification to ignore what is plainly in front of your nose.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Clarification?

It is basically the same as it ever was from you and folks like you. Overwhelming evidence against your position is disregarded, while the one or two bits that support you are elevated to the utmost importance and become the justification to ignore what is plainly in front of your nose.

Stereotype much?

I think you need to break this down for me.

You're saying that GR and "folks like him" are ignoring overwhelming evidence against their position.  What position are you referring to and what evidence against it are they ignoring?  And what's the "so what?" of  their position?  (By "so what" I mean, well, exactly that.  For example, if I say "I believe the sky is blue because the FSM used a blue Marks-a-lot on day 2," that may be a wacky and disdain-able belief, but the "so what" is that my position is meaningless for anything but its humor value.)

That's not a snarky question.   It cuts to the heart of the "debate" over global warming, and I'm continually amazed at how positions are mischaracterized and stereotyped.   If we're ever going to have a serious discussion about climate change and what to do about it, we have to get past these rather ridiculous assumptions and find out why we cannot seem to wrangle with the real issues instead of phantom ones.

Bird Dog had a similar post about this over at the Forum.  

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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Clarification

Well, GR's position appears to be that the vast majority of climate change scientists are either just making stuff up to advance some unknown agenda, or just don't know what they are talking about when it comes to climate change. But the position I am mainly referring to is this: we don't know for a fact that the climate change that is occurring now is anthropogenic, so let's just assume that it is not and go on about our business.

The first part of that is undeniably true. We don't know. But we can be pretty darn sure. And there is a bunch of evidence in support of that. Since I suspect no one here really wants to read the entire IPCC report, not to mention all of the published papers that are mentioned in it, I'd suggest reading at least Section 9.7 of the Chapter on Understanding and Attributing Climate Change . The fact is that no one has come up with a viable alternative to anthropogenic warming. That doesn't prove that it is anthropogenic, but it does indicate that it is very likely.

The "so what?" is that by ignoring the evidence that mankind is contributing to climate change, we are throwing away the only chance we have of actually doing something about it.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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It's the wrong battle

The "so what?" is that by ignoring the evidence that mankind is contributing to climate change, we are throwing away the only chance we have of actually doing something about it.

So, you're thinking that all that is needed is for GR and his ilk (to join in the stereotyping) to say "You know what, mankind IS contributing to global warming!"  and that will make us all go kumbaya and suddenly decide that our priority is to cut greenhouse gas emissions at the expense of our standard of living and national growth?

Really?

It's the wrong battle.  Instead of arguing over causes, we should be talking about solutions.   From the practical standpoint of "what are we going to do about it" causes don't really matter because we are not, as a planet, going to stop burning fossil fuels until there is a replacement source for our energy requirements.  And we don't need agreement that mankind is to blame in order to begin the development of those sources, or to develop viable amelioration and adaptive strategies.

IMHO, GR's position is that those specific scientists have been compromised by the disclosures.   And that climate science is becoming politicized and un-scientific.  

And for what it's worth, I am on your side on this one.  The natural history of this planet has long been a hobby of mine.  Our use of fossil fuels has indeed had an effect.  

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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The stupidity of the left

I hate to pick on individual commentors, but this comment was too priceless not to mention as some of the stereotypical stupidity of those on the Left when it comes to this issue.  So, please cut the individual poster some slack because while I'm picking on her specific comment,  the thought process she embodies is really more of my point.  Copying the entire comment, but the original is here :

Dr. James Hansen, the climate scientist from NASA was a guest on our local NPR radio station, and he said that he doesn't believe that cap and trade will be effective enough in controlling emissions to a low enough level.  He said that unless we shut down all coal producing plants by ... (I forgot when but I think it was within 2 years or so) that it will be too late.  I haven't read his book "Storms of My Grandchildren" yet and I'm sure the info is in there.  But he sais the problem is that there are 37 coal producing states and each one has 2 senators.  Anyway, my question is, what do you think of this, and is there any way to really shut down the coal plants soon enough to stop the climate crisis in time?

She means well.  She really does.  But the total idiocy of her statement seems to escape her.

is there any way to really shut down the coal plants soon enough to stop the climate crisis in time?

No, hon, there isn't.   Unless you want to disconnect the majority of the nation from their electrical grid next year.   While that might have some effect on climate change, it might also have a, er, perhaps significant effect upon their jobs, their homes, their schools, families, etc.   I tell you what.  Let's all just swear off of electricty next year, and that will solve everything!  You go first.

I thought the Democrats prided themselves on being the "smart ones" or the "reality based ones" or the "adults capable of complex problem solving and nuance."  If this is the case, then why these asinine questions?  Yep, let's just shut down all the coal plants.  That will fix it!

And she (and perhaps Hansen, although my guess is she's misrepresenting his argument a bit) thinks the only problem with that approach is "37 coal producing states and each one has 2 senators."    Of course, the only thing standing in the way of implementing a solution are those nasty coal producers.  How silly of me.  It's not like people actually NEED and USE the electricity produced via coal.  It's just the coal producers'  fault.

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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I think naivete

 would be a kinder gentler description.

  Decades of frustration, with big energy industries, who have ignored, gamed, mocked, and denigrated any form of changing priorities to cleaner production, and we just can't, can not find a way to get around using dirty coal. Can't do it.

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Jeez PF

I find your dismissivness unwarranted.  The original poster correctly identified coal plants as the largest contributor to climate change.  Nowhere in her post did she mention cutting electricity demand by the 50% or so the US would need to get rid of coal plants.  The issue is whether there exists a way to generate enough replacement power within a realistic time frame (the curves I recall had a range of 10-30 years before positive feedback effects make reductions ineffective).  Conservation (weatherizing homes, etc.) can help too but nobody expects demand to halve in 20 years with or without it.  The question is only asinine if you stretch its meaning, and even then I'm pretty sure we COULD collectively manage without coal if everyone were convinced a Day After Tomorrow scenario were just around the corner.  After all, we didn't produce any commercial cars between 1941 and 1945
So is there currently a power source that could provide enough baseload power to replace every single coal plant in the US?  Actually yes: nuclear.  It takes about 10 years for a new nuclear plant to be commissioned after the deal is signed (maybe less with a more streamlined licensing process).  There is plenty of uranium with known deposits to fuel the fleet of 100 or so new American reactors it would take to replace the coal plants, at least enough for several decades.  And maybe those laid-off coal miners can either switch over to mining uranium or get trained as nuke operators with better pay, benefits and less black lung.  Sure it would cost hundreds of billions, but the positive fallout (no pun intended) effects are considerable, and if you end up saving coastal properties in Florida the cost-benefit starts to look real attractive.
Yes, we Democrats do pride ourselves on being the smart ones (no scare quotes needed).  We give long, layered answers full of qualifiers to difficult questions.  We're slightly less likely to use cheap toss-off phrasing than Republicans, and much less likely to manufacture phony scandals about which we know nothing.   There are plenty of  pro- and anti-nuke Democrats, and while I find the latter tend to be misinformed about things like the importance of half-lives, at least they're trying to grasp the issues.  I get the impression Republicans are for nuclear power because they are reflexively pro-business and they hate hippies.

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Low standards ;-)

Yes, I guess you have a point.   It takes real brainpower and grasp of the subject matter---beyond, oh, fifth grade, even?---- to correctly identify coal plants as major CO2 generators.

Then to take the next cognitive step and seriously ask "Can we shut down all of the US coal plants within the next two years to save the world?" well, that's pure genius.

Nice try though.

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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Almost as brainy

as cutting taxes during a time of war.

Or telling folks 'You just qualified for that loan on your new home."

 It shouldn't take that much brainpower to grasp the notion that neither of the above options were sustainable.

 Getting rid of all coal plants is rhetoric that  gets the message across, that coal plants are big polluters. 

 

 

 

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Such powerful rhetoric it is, too

Getting rid of all coal plants is rhetoric that  gets the message across, that coal plants are big polluters.

Powerful rhetoric indeed.  News flash: Coal plants generate CO2!  And lots of it!  Like, OMG!  Really? 

Almost as powerful as: News flash: Dogs bite!

It's pitiful rhetoric that demonstrates that the person saying it has not thought one millimeter deep into the problem of energy generation and use.  You were closer to honesty with your "naivete" comment.

Admit it.  This particular commentor, and those who spew similarly intelligent "rhetoric," make Sarah Palin look smart.

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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I admit

  that the American people are extremely gullible.

 If you want to go on a crusade against stupid there is plenty of material to work with.

 I would include on the list of the stupidest things ever, cutting taxes during a time of war. Or things that actually happened  and caused our nation great harm.

  Closing all coal mines tomorrow is just a silly pipe dream. The windmill chasing rhetoric does not cause in any harm, especially since it will never happen.

   If you want some rhetorical flair I will posit that the last polar bear will be dead long before clean burning coal plants become a functional alternative for generating electricity.

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Hate to rain on your parade, corph,

 but the Democrats haven't acted smart for the past 40 or so years.  They've self-destructed every single time, and it's happening again, right before our very eyes.  Obama is no exception.  I didn't vote for him, so I don't have it on my conscience, nor do I feel any regret for not voting for him.

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There's a difference

between political acumen and general smarts.

You mentioned not voting for Obama before.  That's great.  I did note that pretty much all of your points are made in the negative.  I don't know if you expect me to reflexively defend Obama or something, but I find your political nihilism simply boring.

I would say every Democratic nominee since Johnson has been an exceptional citizen with considerable intellect and accomplishments.  Some are also good politicians (Obama, Clinton), some mediocre (Kerry, Gore, Carter) and some bad (Mondale, McGovern).  They've all had signature issues and done groundbreaking work.  Both the winners and losers have shown exemplary commitment to public service after their terms or electoral loss, none more so than the least accomplished (Carter). 

In contrast, Republican nominees ended up resigning in disgrace, playing a lot of golf, sinking further into senility*, joining oil consulting cartels and lobbying groups, starring in viagra commercials and most recently headlining pathetic 19$ self-help conventions.

The correlation between president's intellect and success is loose at best, but that can be attributed to many things including popular anti-intellectualism.  Note the smartest modern republican (Eisenhower) is still in the lower half of the x-axis intellect range.

Most Americans don't seem to appreciate the huge disparity between the parties, posibly because it's always been that way.  Other country's opinion leaders, though, regularly express bewilderment at the continuing relative parity of the Republican party.  Or because the media feel compelled to scream just as loud when a Democrat says something stupid as when ten Republicans do. But morally and intellectually, there's almost no comparison.

* And no, Reagan can't be excused for his Alzeimer's simply because it was involuntary.  He ran for president when he was 69, and debilitating disease becomes exponentially more likely as one ages.  Rs haven't seemed to learn the lesson by nominating Dole and McCain either.

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political nihilism

 What a descriptive phrase. Love it! :-)

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Well, GR's position appears

Well, GR's position appears to be that the vast majority of climate change scientists are either just making stuff up to advance some unknown agenda, or just don't know what they are talking about when it comes to climate change.

Well, we now know that for the CRU scientists ... which include many of the lead authors within the IPCC assessment reports ... they have been making stuff up all along.  Their agenda isn't that hard to discern, they like getting continued lucrative grant money to investigate AGW.  For the rest?  Do they know what they are talking about?  It depends.  I believe that they know what the raw data is and can talk about that well enough,  but the logic that they employ and the conclusions that they reach are logically unfounded in many cases.

I believe that they have significantly exaggerated the significance of CO2 as compared to other forcings.

But the position I am mainly referring to is this: we don't know for a fact that the climate change that is occurring now is anthropogenic, so let's just assume that it is not and go on about our business.

I'm sure that's how you want to see it.  The reality is that my position (and that of folks like me) is NOT "let's just assume that it is not and go on about our business," it is instead "let's not cripple society and our collective standard of living until we are far more confident of the turth than we are now."

But we can be pretty darn sure. And there is a bunch of evidence in support of that.

This is worded like a kool aid drinker would word it.  A skeptic would instead say "there is a bunch of evidence that is not inconsistent with AGW."  You see proof.  I see a lack of contradiction.  I claim that my position is the conservative one in this case in the sense that it seeks to avoid trashing things needlessly.

The fact is that no one has come up with a viable alternative to anthropogenic warming.

Not true.  Solar influences are the most viable alternative and they make much more sense, IMHO.

That doesn't prove that it is anthropogenic, but it does indicate that it is very likely.

You say very likely.  I say possible.  I argue that "possible" is the most definitive that we can legitimately claim based on the currently available data.

The "so what?" is that by ignoring the evidence that mankind is contributing to climate change, we are throwing away the only chance we have of actually doing something about it.

I don't deny that humans have had some impact on the climate, but I differ on the extent to which humans are the primary cause of recent warming.  Did we have an impact by releasing CO2?  Sure, that's obvious.  Did that impact amount to something more than a hill of beans?  You claim yes, I claim it is not clear.

We don't even know if the warming will be beneficial or harmful, so why panic?

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Gee, did this strike a nerve? Don't shoot the messenger.

It isn't particularly compelling evidence of any kind of giant conspiracy, or "proof" that AGW is a hoax, though. It perhaps dings a couple of lines of evidence, out of the hundreds that are out there.

Where did I say it was proof that AGW was a hoax?  If I remember correctly, my position was that this undermines the credibility of the science being done at CRU.  Not that the CRU is not simply one little datapoint, however, they are a significant pillar in the IPCC reports.  Are they the whole story?  No and I never claimed that they were.

You seem to think this is something of a nail in the coffin, yet you probably don't care much about the many many more documented cases of fabrication, fraud and deceit by "climate denialists."

Whoa.  That's pretty strong.  This is, of course, a kool aid comment though.  You immediately buy into the AGW party line that anything which contradicts the mantra is a case of cases of fabrication, fraud and deceit by "climate denialists." Sorry, but I refuse to drink that kool aid.

As far as the data being "destroyed" that's just another example of deceit from "your side." The data was tossed by UEA, sure, but they got it in the first place from meteorological services around the world, and it is all still there. Huge amounts of data are completely open and available to the public.

RealClimate?  Sorry, they are not reliable.  They are tightly coupled with the folks at the CRU and we now know how much integrity THEY have.  And speaking of deceit, you are spreading some of your own here.  Yes, the original meteorological services still have their data.  Unless the CRU can tell people which sources they used, which datapoints they eliminated and for what reasons, and which "adjustments" they made to the rest and for what reasons, no one will ever be able to verify and reproduce the CRU results.  Failing that, from a scientific perspective the CRU data is useless.  Having destroyed the original data there is no way for them to provide the necessary traceability from they input data back to the original source data.

Any way you slice it, not being able to articulate and demonstrate the methods you used is just embarassingly unscientific.

It is basically the same as it ever was from you and folks like you. Overwhelming evidence against your position is disregarded, while the one or two bits that support you are elevated to the utmost importance and become the justification to ignore what is plainly in front of your nose.

Wow, another rather bigotted viewpoint.  Where have I disregarding ANY evidence.  I don't disregard any evidence.  It is the conclusions being drawn from that evidence that I dispute.  As far as I am concerned the primary conclusions put forth in the AGW community are unfounded in the sense that the raw data (i.e. the evidence) does not conclusively prove their theory is correct.  In many cases that evidence may be consistent with their theory, however that is a far cry from being able to claim that it irrefutably proves their theory.

Mine is an inherently skeptical POV.  Theirs is an inherently faith based POV when they are pushing conclusions that can't be conclusively proven using the available data.  And as far as ignoring data is concerned, just read the ClimateGate anaylsis.  The CRU folks have been actively ignoring data that is in conflict with their preferred POV.  The skeptics on the other hand urge people to pay attention to ALL the data, even the inconvenient bits.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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And here is the crux of the matter

As far as I am concerned the primary conclusions put forth in the AGW community are unfounded in the sense that the raw data (i.e. the evidence) does not conclusively prove their theory is correct.  In many cases that evidence may be consistent with their theory, however that is a far cry from being able to claim that it irrefutably proves their theory.

Conclusive proof virtually never happens in science. If that is what you require before any action is taken, then no action will ever be taken. No one that I know of is claiming irrefutable proof.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Meh.

In this context my meaning was along the lines of rrefutable proof = scientific fact.  In other words, my statement equates to roughly that.  Yes,we all know that "scientific fact" does NOT equate to "actually being a fact".

So allow me to rephrase:

As far as I am concerned the primary conclusions put forth in the AGW community are unfounded in the sense that the raw data (i.e. the evidence) does not conclusively prove their theory is correct fails to justify considering their theory to be "scientific fact."  In many cases that evidence may be consistent with their theory, however that is a far cry from being able to claim that it irrefutably proves their theory raises that theory to a level that justifies considering the AGW theory to be "scientific fact."

AGW is just a scientific theory, it is not a scientific law, and the data available to us at this point doesn't even begin to justify such a transition.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Fair enough

Although by the time it gets elevated to scientific fact, it will likely be too late to do anything about it. FYI , there's a pretty good article at Popular Mechanics about the whole mess. Á propos to your comment, the last page is all about "what we know for sure." I'm going to quote the final paragraph here, because it fairly well summarizes my thoughts on the matter:

Most scientists know and acknowledge these uncertainties, and reason as follows. We're in an unprecedented situation, with regard to the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere and the rate at which it is rising. Because this is unprecedented, we are not sure what is going to happen. But global warming is very likely, and reasonably probable outcomes could be fatal. Ignoring it would be like Russian roulette. Want to play? I do not.

 

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Skyscrapers and Emerging Markets

 The tax haven of Dubai has fallen victim to the over leveraging euphoria with speculation that the emerging market owes twice as much as it output. The city of excess where the uber rich come to play looks to be a symbol of the toxic thinking that has brought shock and awe to the global financial system.

 The theory that no taxes would draw in businesses to the attractive business playground seemed sound, until the whole thing blew up in their faces. The question is, how many players got sucked in and how much damage will the unpaid credit defaults of the commercial real estate markets impact the global economy.

 There are two ways for economies to grow. The Dubai model was to have zero taxes to attract investors to bring in capital (supply). UBS of London has been using Dubai to create capital. It isn't too much of a secret that resentment against regulations by US businesses spurred many to relocate to London. Some of the big names at Enron and Arthur Anderson relocated offshore to spin their money making schemes in London are now trying to unravel the credit debacle of Dubai.

 The hope of an economic recovery is looking dim. We still have to suffer for these fools that thought they could spin money out of air. Will anyone ever learn that demand is the creator of a sound economy. The supply follows the demand, not the other way around.

 

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The bigger question is

 

  Dubai is the ultimate symbol of capitalist freedom and creative entrepreneurial animal spirits, a country with zero taxes.

 Glenn Beck called and wants to know  how did the communists and acorn infiltrate Dubai and ruin their economy.

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You are good at finding and noticing relevant symptoms

as usual.

...but not so good at drawing conclusions from them.

Bad behavior resulting from distorted price signals and the predictable misallocation of capital that ensues is just that....distortions followed by misallocation.

The fact that you use these very problems as a spring board into a gripe on low taxes and lack of "enough regulations" (whatever that means) and other irrelevancies is still something of a head scratcher. It's like a Rorschach Test and you see the darnedest things.

Oh well.

The classic and catastrophic boom/bust resulting in wide spread recessions from idle resources tied up in the wrong things is an age-old problem rooted in monetary policy...as I've discussed with you many times. This Dubai thing is nothing new. In fact, it simply reinforces the old addage about monetary blunders and how they set off a chain reaction of capital and investement imblances that must implode and reorganize once market actors take notice. Whether these matters result in over-investement of tech stocks, real estate, widget factories or iPods is not the real issue. They are simply what the these misdirected winds happened to pick up depending on the current lanscape. The source of the winds themselves is the real issue.

Bottom line is that if that Greenspan hadn't been so overly worried about avoiding a more appropriate market correction after the tech burst by slashing fed funds rates to below Zero, the pain in 2002 woud have been a little more pronounced and the market would have rebounded in wiser way. Instead we got a artificial boom that pummeled into real estate. Seemed nice at the time...but it was always bound to backfire.

Nothing new.

See China. Same thing:

http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2009/11/chinas_allocati.html

 

 

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The symptom is the political talking point

 the ceaseless mantra that lower taxes and less regulation will bring freedom. 

 It is notable that Dubai was to be the buyer of our ports. Why? Because they could reap all the benefits built up over decades of sweat on the backs of laborers and reap the security of the civil structure of the US economy, make tons of profit and not have to pay taxes.

 I would say the shock of disaster capitalism has come home to roost.

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This is exactly my point.

The symptom is the over-production of capital you describe in the initial post. That much was very clear. I can already sense by your response that further discussion on my part is probably not a good idea. Sheesh.

I'll leave it at.

Bye.

 

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You should know by now

 that I lean heavily in the Naomi Kline camp. It should come as nor surprise that we disagree.

  I am simply suggesting that when you unwrap all the theories and dogma behind the Chicago School, the GOP, the conservative movement, and the slew of libertarian thinkers that backed Goldwater, then Reagan, the movements core message has always been the same,  less taxes and less regulation lead to more freedom. Sarah Palin was chosen because her core message of freedom falls right in line with that history.

 Dubai is a prime of example of what happens when you have a country with no taxes.  It creates an inviting atmosphere for thieves, corruption and money laundering. It is also a choice vacation spot for the politically well connected.

 

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You may suggest that all you want.

However, it has no relevance here. That was my point.

Your hammer needs to realize that not everything is a nail.

I know that you want to talk about more taxes and control and "power to the people"...(through control by elected elites..go figure)...and that's all fine and good. I'm not blind. I see where you want to go. Blab away.By all means.

My only reason for even responding is that not everything represents a segway into that discussion....this topic is one such example.

I like talking football. However, problems in Dubai have nothing to do with it so there's little there to logically get into football from Dubai real estate. Same thing.

BTW, the correlation you posit between no taxes and thievery/laundering/corruption is a daunting task. I don't how you logically argue it without getting an F in Debating 101. How is no taxes a cause for those things?

I think it would easier to argue that diet soda must cause obesity since many obese people drink it. And that's not really easy either.

 

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Segway to Football no. Golf yes

Tiger Woods in Dubai!

 I wonder if 'Tiger Woods Dubai', an exclusive golf course designed by Woods will make it to the finish line what with Dubai's commercial credit woes!

 Small world.

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So Obama gives the military everything they asked for and many

on the right are outraged.  Oh, they aren't outraged at the troops, they aren't outraged with the troops getting to Afghanistan quicker than he asked for.  They're outraged that Obama said we weren't going to be there forever.  That we would begin pulling troops in 2011.

Man I'm tellin' ya, there are those out there that have Obama Derangement Syndrome & it's weird.  During Clinton's term, they (at first) tried to have some pretense of rationality, but now, with a black guy as president there isn't any need for their bitching to make any rational sense.  And sadly, the media then reports it as real news instead of the phaux outrage & political posturing that it is.

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Which Is Why I Watch TV News Less and Less...

I barely started to tune in for the speech. My biggest concern with the Presidents' approach is that he did not explain how it would be paid for. Are we going to charge it? If so, the fiscons better step up and make their opposition known. If we have no money to pay for health care, then we also have no money to prop up another country (Afghanistan) while ours continues to suffer.

http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186

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It is a bit baffling

 considering that our military, touted as the best there is,  is an authoritarian collective based on central control, preserves and fights for our freedoms.  The military is provided with social safety nets, as a reward for service.  Yet very loud voices in our country are at this time screaming that collectives that provide social safety nets, will be 'the end of freedom as we know it'. The irony!

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It is not baffling at all ...

The message here is simple:

Fight for freedom and you get our collective support.  Fight against freedom (almost the definition of a collective) and you get out collective condemnation.

It makes perfect sense to me.  I understand that in your personal bizzaro world it may not.

 

Meta: This post is a semi-serious comment with a touch of humor.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Wondering if

 you can clarify what the definition of 'freedom' is? This word is used a lot.

 The military is organized around some strong socialist  principles specifically for the purpose of being an efficient and successful at what they do.

 Seeing as how the military will be training up the military in Afghanistan, are we not in fact defeating freedom by fighting to create a socialist organization as the basis of a more secure Afghanistan?

 Or could it be that the first priority of having a civil society is recognizing that there has to be a sense of collective spirit that provides for the common good.

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Look, you're implying that Afghani's want a government like ours

Not directly mind you, but certainly indirectly.  Not every place's people start with the same conceptions of what makes a good government.  Afghanistan is NEVER going to be a democracy.  They really aren't even geared towards a republic although that would be closer.  Really, they are so tribal & clan orientated, a more natural fit is an oligarchy with the cover of it being a theocracy so as to keep the simple folk in line.  You know those theocrats.  Same everywhere.

So my point is this.  Afghanistan has never threatened the US.  We have always been able to bomb it back to the stone age.  It was really only a few thousand of 'em that hijacked those 4 planes.  And that happened because we stopped paying attention to 'em after we helped them drive out the Soviets.  As a country, as a geographic entity and place, it isn't worth anyone dying over.  I'm not saying leave them & allow 'the bad guys' who I don't think highly of either take over again.  But the Taliban are their local religious leaders.  You aren't going to be able to wipe out their religious leaders no matter how much you or I don't like them.  You are really talking about occupying Afghanistan.  Where you aware that polled Afghani's say they think the US is occupying them.  Do you know that even in Pakistan, a much more educated country, the polls showed a majority of the people think the US is occupying Afghanistan & a big part of why their country is in such turmoil.

This can't be won.  It can be militarily held, but that's different.  I don't want to walk away but bin Laden's whole idea was to bankrupt the US and they've succeded beyond their wildest dreams.  You know how much cash the US has spent on Afghanistan & Iraq? One trillion dollars.   All because 4 planes were hijacked and crashed.  We over-reacted.  We did want Osama wished and we even know it.

We should help the people of Afghanistan, Iraq & Pakistan but you are gonna have to accept some religious leaders that don't like you or I.  Same thing with most all religions really.

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Pull the troops out of Afghanistan in 2011?!?

 Here's a suggestion:  Don't hold your breath.

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Republicans could make

 the case to build a bigger tent, if they would focus on less regulation for small business and economic issues.

 But...... in order to do so, they would have to embrace health insurance reform. If nothing is done about the costs of insurance and the rising cost of health care, it will consume 100% of your income in due time. How is it fiscally responsible to not embrace cost controls for health insurance?

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Democrats could make...

...the case to build a bigger tent, if they would focus on less regulation of small business and more on economic issues.

 But...... in order to do so, they would have to embrace real health insurance reform. If nothing is done about the costs of a meddling government gone berserk, the inflation caused by poor monetary policy, trillions of dollars of massive debt, and increasingly burdensome taxes, it will consume 100% of your income in due time. How is it fiscally responsible to embrace the governments takeover of yet another US industry?

Emphasis is mine.

 

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

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Most the world either has a heavily regulated private

like Germany or Switzerland of single payer like most the rest.

So what are you saying?  Do nothing?  Like that's worked out so well so far.

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Inflammatory tales

  I do Home Health Care, and work for an old fashioned marine. He has a heart of gold and lots of stories to spin. He loves Michael Savage, and Glenn Beck. Needless to say, I avoid any political discussion.

 Somehow, politics came up, one day and he said "I know you voted for that ni**ger! Tell me one thing, one, that he has ever done that is pro-American?" (His candidate was Alan Keyes.) I mentioned that he fought in wars so I could vote freely.  Then I went a little crazy. "I said, I am so sick of you guys complaining. Why don't you and your pals just grab your guns and k**l him.  Go ahead just assisinate him. You know that's what you want." His eyes actually sparkled with delight. I said you guys bitch and moan and whine, like little girls,  about everything this President does, every single breath he takes, but you never ever have any solutions to one single problem. What is your solution? Give me one solution. Just one! He has been nice to me ever since.

 As an aside he has been on the govt dole for at least 20 years. He drank too much, did too many drugs, and had a severe stroke at 40. The tax payers have paid for his care ever since. He drove his wife crazy and she was in a tax payer funded mental institution, and is now in a tax payer funded nursing home. His pet peeve of course is 'high taxes'. Nevermind that without all of the social safety nets available to him and his wife, he would have been dead years ago.

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Just to remind you, in case you'd fogotten...

...which is not to difficult given the current state of affairs...

This is not Germany, we were kind enough to bail those guys out 50 years ago, or Switzerland which has taken taken such a bold stand on so many compelling issues, but America my friend, yes America, which due to its Constitution and the residual liberties and characteristics it  has built into the American experience and persona had required no such bailing out nor had it taken root on such flimsy ground.

Nevertheless...

Are you suggesting we could not find a way to simplify and lower health care costing with out a government take over of the system?

 

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

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Residual liberties.....

 ?

 If health care (life) were a right.

 It is against the law in many countries to use sickness as a means of profiteering.

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America

has bailed itself out before.

That is what FDR's New Deal and the WPA was all about. Using govt money to provide jobs.

 It is what the GI Bill was all about. Using govt money to provide a college education.

 It is what Eisenhours highways project was all about. Using government money to build a reliable interstate transportation system.

 But according to Michael Savage and Glenn Beck, both FDR and Eisenhour were communists as are all liberals.

 Also: Isn't the reason we have been able to win wars, and rebuild Germany is precisely because we have the capacity to print money to fund the effort. You have no problem liberating and rebuilding Germany but rebuilding America is just beyond the pale?

 

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Yes

Are you suggesting we could not find a way to simplify and lower health care costing with out a government take over of the system?

In a way, yes.

Had the for-profit industry seen fit to make sure it wasn't killing its own golden goose, none of this would be necessary, would it?

Options any conservative could support that were never acted upon:

1) Unlink healthcare from employment.   No other industrialized nation does it the way we have, and it's pricing our labor out of the market and provides cover for artificially high premiums. 

2) Increase competition in the healthcare insurance industry

3) Implement price controls (yes, draconian, but entirely sensible if it's government tax dollars being spent) for Medicare/Medicaid and prescription drugs.

4) Open the prescription drug marketplace to competition from Canada and elsewhere.

Instead, we have elected officials who've been (and still are) in the pay of their corporate sponsors and who have always sided with money instead of with the citizenry.

The bill coming out of Washington is likely to be pretty awful all around.  But the Republicans had their chances, too, and did nothing.

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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Agreed.

One of the problems with American political life right now is the subterfuge that plays out.

Republicans really aren't so interested in a health care system that is free from government oversight or interference.  They just want to 1) collect PAC money for elections & 2) poke a stick in the eye of Democrats so they can increase their chances of getting elected next year.

It's a crazy way to decide how to do stuff as a society.  One way I think we would truly get r4esults right away....do away with health care coverage for our Congresspersons, Senators and Federally elected officials.  Let them buy their own on the private market without any help.

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Another problem...

CNN and HL are trying to compete with E!
MSNBC still lets Olbermann do his stand-up routine of impressions among other things.
Fox News, is run like it's Jr High production of young trust fund republicans. Why on earth would a reporter play up the idea of Gore vs Palin debating climate change? Who are they but a walking hyperbole maker and taking points memo regurgitator? And that was their bright spot of the month for them.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Some would call that progress.

The question is 'Progress for whom?'

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The rub:

2) Increase competition in the healthcare insurance industry

Libertarians seem to think that hands-off government = increased competition, when in many sectors it's simply not true.  You get monopolies, cartels and price-fixing.  The Goverment needs to actively promote competition akin to what they do with anti-dumping laws for commodities, or else simply take over the whole business itself.

 

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Excellent point corph

 Hands off government does not equal increased competition. 

 

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That's only half of the argument

It's not just "hands off"....it's hands off of WHAT?

A system as unbelievably regulated and distorted as health care and health insurance is the reality of everything that has been done up to this point as well as everything that has been done to what has been done.

We're talking about multiple layers of tweaks, law-changes, regulations, deregulations, new laws and so forth.

"Hands off" is a general ideal in the abstract under circumstances that are still close to "virgin" in nature. Once you have a reality that results from layers upon of layers of distortions and changes, the "hands off" approach is really not that simply anymore.

However, it still holds as a general rule if allowed to play out. You can very well have cases where anti-trust interventions are too hasty because they are short-sighted and disrupt evolution in markets that can stifle and pervert that evolution and produce oligarchies and regulated monolopolies that would not have happened with more prudence.

Hasty "good-doing" (oxymoronic) then substitutes for prudence and wisdom.

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Well

 I agree that the Democrats would make huge gains, if they focus on friendlier small business regulations.

 So what is your solution, if you have one?

 Worship the dollar guaranteeing that you will be one of the meritorious few that is rich enough to afford getting sick in America.

 It's easy to bitch, and moan about everything under the sun, but coming up with real solutions is a whole different ball game. 

 

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