Hey, it's 2012 already-Sure would be great to see the site get busy again!

Hello all! Hope everyone is well!

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The sign

 needs changing if the store is to remain open.  It still reads '2010.'  Makes the site look a bit dusty.

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida

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Is Ender still hosting the site?

I actually like the interface a lot, and with a few updates and maybe a publicity drive we could probably up the traffic a lot. We would need a more active core of members though.

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As far as I know

Ender is still hosting the site.  I'll ping him via Facebook and let him know there's been some activity.

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hey hey

consider me pinged :)

I actually got some weird email about the site today, and decided to take a look!

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Promoted to the front page

To see if we get any more participation :-)

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Meta question

How do I bring up my own comment history? I trashed my old link and forgot how to do it.

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Ender might know

But IIRC, that kind of thing has not been working on the site for quite some time.  It's supposed to be on the Track tab of your profile, but I've never gotten that to work right for me.  I think it broke at some point, and they never got around to re-coding it.

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yeah

I am still hosting the site. Technically I could spend some time on updating the software and freshening it up a bit - making sure some stuff works.

That's if people are actually interested in doing something here. It's tough to resurrect :)

I've recently became a bit more energized about politics and started participating again at Redstate.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Heh

I see that someone called you a Paulbot over there at redstate.  Some folks aren't very perceptive!

I'm starting to think that Santorum is a more electable candidate than Romney.  I went back and looked at his debates with Casey in 2006.  Now, Bob Casey is not Mr. Charisma by any means, but I was shocked at how badly Santorum actually beat him in those debates.  He is a pit bull.  I actually like Santorum in a weird sort of way, even though I find some of his views offensive.  He seems honest and hard working, anyway.

Romney just doesn't have it, unless "it" is a crapload of money.  Somebody told Romney he had to loosen up and act more natural, I think.  Big mistake-- when Romney tries to act "natural" he comes off as a buffoon, and worse than that, he says something stupid that can be used against him every time he goes off script.  Romney has no charm, no appeal whatsover.  Romney's the guy who's filthy rich because his daddy was a rich politician combined with the fact that Romney is a heartless bastard who is willing to fire a thousand people and put their paychecks in his pocket.  He's Gordon Gekko without any of the charisma of Michael Douglas.  If Romney was your boss, you'd roll your eyes when he approached becuase you know he's totally worthless but making 100x as much as you.  Jump off the bandwagon while there is still time!  :-)

 

 

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yeah it can be a bit frustrating

talking to stupid people, but it's nothing new all over the internet :)

I know many people don't like Romney, but I do like him as a person. I think he is just not a natural politician and is not good in public. But I empathize with him, and think temperamentally and mentally he is much more qualified to be president than the other 3 dwarfs.

Because he is not comfortable in public, he puts his foot in his mouth once in a while, and comes off a bit unlively :). I don't hold his wealth against him, nor do I hold his business against him. I think the business he was in was not as bad as Newt tried to make it out to be.

Romney is a solid family man who is morally grounded, politically practical and not very ideological. I want someone who will be willing to change his mind when it comes time to fix things. He is also much smarter than Obama.

So there, I am the one person who actually really likes Romney as a person :) I've liked him since '08.

As for Santorum, I don't dislike him, and think he is a solid debater. Sometimes he whines or comes off as angry, but I would probably be pissed too if I was ignored for a long time. Now he is getting his due. I think he would be painted as a theocrat that he is, and his positions would not need to be exaggerated too much to make him unacceptable to the majority of the population. I also have a special aversion to the anti-evolution and generally anti-science candidates. I'd support him in the general but he has no chance.

Romney can win against Obama. I know it. There is a lot of bragging going on on the liberal sites, as if Obama is such a strong candidate, and that all Republicans are extremely flawed to ever have a chance. It's a joke.

Newt can stay on his moon colony.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Romney can win against

Romney can win against Obama. I know it. There is a lot of bragging going on on the liberal sites, as if Obama is such a strong candidate, and that all Republicans are extremely flawed to ever have a chance. It's a joke.

I am guilty of joining in the bragging.  Yes, there is a lot of overconfidence and gloating going on, but that is because Romney has been such a pathetic candidate so far.  He has been every bit of the flawed candidate that liberals have made him out to be.  And the polling numbers clearly show that the flaws are hurting him. Meanwhile, Obama has been very solid, and the economy is doing a little better.

The flaws are not just the unexpected mistakes Romney's made.  Even when he is not making mistakes he has to be defensive.  He has to defend his record as a private equity guy when the vast majority hates Wall Street.  He has to defend his record of laying people off when people are concerned about employment. He has to defend the fact that he pays a miniscule tax rate when the vast majority think the rich don't pay enough tax.  He has to defend his offshore bank accounts.  He has to defend the fact that he has changed his positions on abortion, health care, bailouts, and other hot-button issues. 

Romney cannot hit Obama where Obama might be weak.  Obama hasn't fixed the unemployment problem but Romney has laid lots of people off so that he could get paid.  Obama has been soft on China but Romney has offshore bank accconts.  Obama has no military service on his record but Romney got deferrments during Vietnam and suggested that his son's work on his political campaign was equivalent to military service.  Obama is an elitist law professor, but Romney can't put on a camouflage jacket and carry a rifle and pretend to be a regular guy, because he'll look silly doing it.  At least Obama can play a little hoops-- what regular guy stuff can Romney do?  Who wants to drink a beer with Romney?  Nobody but you!

Obviously, I do not think that he is smarter than Obama.  When Romney parrots the generic Republican talking points, he is not convincing.  Whenever Romney strays from generic Republican talking points, he screws up.  He is dishonest in general, but honest at all the wrong times.  These are all signs that he is not that smart-- he is not doing the subtle things that make a politician effective, and I don't think he has the self-awareness to correct this.  Obama has learned to do these things.

And what are Romney's advantages?  He has a ton of money and a nationwide organization.  Well, so will Obama.  Romeny has a solid marriage and family?  So does Obama.  Romney has been vetted and does not have any big skeletons in his closet?  Neither does Obama. 

I know none of this stuff about Romney is stuff you haven't already heard many times, but the people who are saying these things are right.

Santorum at least provides a contrast.  Obama is cool and controlled.  That is Romney's style too but he is not as good at it.  Santorum can pull off being fiery and angry and still not lose his self control.  Romney doesn't do fiery or angry, and if he tries it, he will either look silly or make a mistake.  If the economy is still bad, an effectively angry candidate could appeal to angry voters.  Of course Santorum's stone-age social and religous views are probably a disadvantage for him, but the economy will be such a big issue that I think voters could overlook that stuff.  They are not going to overlook Romney's tiny tax rate and all the money he "earned" by laying people off.

 

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the economy

Is doing slightly better despite Obama's flailing, since he really hasn't implemented anything in the last 2 years to help. People know it. Obama is not a leader, he just stands there on the sidelines watching, waiting to take credit if anything improves, waiting to blame Bush (3 years later) if things keep going sour. Obama can only talk and pretend, but he is a fraud and the only thing he is good at is perpetual campaigning.

Hope and change... What had he changed? Hope he doesn't screw our economy any more. He can only throw in silly wedge issues, like the contraception nonsense, getting even social liberals like myself pissed by forcing churches to pay for something that is already covered. Is he going to make Viagra completely free just like the women's contraception? It's a smart play, because democrats are great at making issues out to be what they are not. Forcing the Catholic Church to subsidize contraception is a stroke of genius, because you can shore up the idiots who can only focus on one word at a time.

That's his entire campaign. Appealing to morons who have a very short memory of him not doing anything about the economy and jobs, while blaming every republican and their mother for everything not going right. Maybe that's a democrat type of leader, but not mine :)

Romney's advantages are simple. People still trust businessmen to be decent leaders. Look at Bloomberg. People might think - hey he is too rich - but then because we are not socialist European country where wealth is often socially condemned - many will admire him. While there is a large segment of the population who do like to participate in limiting other people's success, there are more of those who think that success should be unlimited and unconstrained by the government. People look at Romney and say, well at least he understands business, and that could be much more relevant to fixing the economy than community organizing. Romney is also not a socially conservative nutcase, and people in the center love those socially moderate Republicans. He will appeal to a majority of independents.

I don't think Romney should try to be one of the people. Wear that suit proudly. Be the CEO that you are. People will respect Romney if he starts being himself. A leader doesn't need to be kind, feeling everyone's pain, compassionate, or a man of the people - he can be sharp, ruthless, and decisive. Santorum impressed me a bit by possessing some of those qualities. I know Romney can be tough as well, I am sure he was that while managing Bain Capital. If he lets that out, glimpses of which we saw during last few debates against Gingrich, he can do better.

If Romney was as bad as you painted him, he wouldn't be running practically even with Obama. Obama has no clothes. He can be cool all he wants, but really he is not doing anything as a president. He is reactive, not proactive. Romney can call him on it.

If people really cared about Romney's wealth, taxes, etc - he would be well behind the savior. Those issues pale with the reality that people think Obama is a bad leader, and not some transformational idol that dailykos would like us to believe.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Typical red bar :-)

I never have seen a red bar that did not love to seize on tiny, narrow, insignificant issues, like this contraception thing.  It does not make a difference on the economy one way or another, we are talking about a tiny sum of money either way.  But you have the religious zealouts on one side and the feminist zealots on the other side, and no matter what Obama does, somebody will throw a tantrum and call foul.  So Obama sides with the feminists, who are more likely to vote for him.  It's called good politics.

You must have forgotten to bring up Solyndra-- another tiny non-issue and non-scandal that the Republicans have tried to blow up into some major catastrophe.

What has Obama done on the economy?  He's done most of the right things to avoid an outright depression.  He supported the bailouts, which was the right thing to do, even though it was unpopular on the left.  He got a stimulus passed which every non-austrian economist agreed was needed.  He passed a payroll tax cut to help out the middle class.  Now, he has completed this robosigning settlement which will put a little money in the hands of some struggling homeowners and simultaneously help move foreclosures along.  He has not done more because 1.) the Republicans aren't inclined just to step aside and let him do whatever he wants, and 2.) there is no extra money, so Obama's hands are tied as far as implementing anything that costs money.

So within these constraints, he is doing the smart thing-- particularly, getting government spending under control.  He's cutting the size of government to reduce the deficit-- gradually by necessity, in order not to stamp out the recovery.  Government employment has fallen 2.6% in Obama's first three years-- even faster than occurred under the great Republican hero Reagan, who only cut government jobs by 2.2% in his first three years in office.  Obama is cutting the deficit-- likely this year for the first time it will be lower than the $1.2 trillion deficit he inherited from Bush.  The deficits are still a huge issue, but huge issues must often be tackled gradually, and that is the case here-- if the government cuts spending too fast, it will put the economy back into recession.  Obama understands this;  Republicans like to dishonestly pretend that Obama could balance the budget right now with no adverse consequences. 

Republicans want to pretend that Obama is running us off a cliff and we will soon be another Greece. Maybe if Bush had another term, that would be the case!  Bush was the irresponsible spender, not Obama:  1.7 million government jobs were added under Bush (while the private sector lost 600,000 jobs over 8 years!); tax giveaways to the rich; a stupid and extremely expensive war in Iraq.  Does Obama blame Bush for the lousy state of the government's finances?  Only when he is being honest! 

I am anything but a class envy person, but Romney is not a guy who built businesses, he was a guy who plundered them.  The euphemism is "creative destruction".  But the operative term there is "destruction" when you saddle a company with huge debts in order to pay yourself enormous fees and you end up not only costing workers their jobs but driving the entire companies into bankruptcy, as Romney did on multiple occasions.  The economy functioned just fine before this kind of corporate raider appeared on the scene, and I certainly do not think that these guys should be subsidized through their tiny 15% tax rates on their income.  This tax giveaway is ridiculous and unnecessary, and yet Romney won't do the right thing and admit that it's not good policy.  It's silly policies like this that fuels the class envy that Republicans say they are against.  Want to reduce class envy?  Start with a reasonable tax code where Romney's income would be taxed in the highest bracket for normal income.

You may be right about Americans trusting a businessman to run the economy but Romney was in the wrong business to earn that trust.  If the Republicans had the sense to turn to a real businessman who built an enterprise, like a Bloomberg, it would be a different story, but the Republicans do not have enough sense to do that.  And that is going to come back to haunt them.  When even Newt Gingrich attacks Romney's business career in a Republican primary, you have to know that Romney's business career is seen as an achilles heel, not a strength.  And even though those attacks did not benefit Gingrich, it sure looks like they have hurt Romney, as his apporval ratings have been plummeting since his record at Bain started making headlines.

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Let's be fair.

It wasn't I who seized on this "tiny, narrow, insignificant issue"... It's been forced and blown up onto our consciousness in the last few days by the Obama administration who instigated it for no other reason but their own political gain. Come on, it's not like I was claiming it was something major, but Obama is the one who made it into the blowup elephant. Anything to try to paint his opponents as some neanderthals, which some of them are but that's another story.

Anyone reasonable would've supported the bailouts, but the stimulus was a joke. He himself admitted that it barely scratched the surface in helping economy add jobs. There were no "shovel ready jobs" in that stimulus. 1 trillion dollars spent on mostly throwing money to his various constituencies and liberal interests. Payroll tax cut was good but fairly minor. It's not that he is not doing anything right, but he did some major things completely wrong, like the stimulus, some small things ok, and otherwise has not proposed anything of serious value.

I'll give him credit for one major thing - Obamacare. I simply don't oppose the concept of mandates. Now there might be details of the plan that I do not support, but the mandates are something I've been ok with in Romneycare, and I won't be a hypocrite and not support them in Obamacare. However I do not think he considered Republican ideas enough, and there could've been better cooperation there.

As for government spending, come on - the deficits are not under control. Just like with Clinton, republicans are trying to force him to cut down on the rate of growth, but it's an uphill struggle. Remember how proud democrats were when Obama did that small deal with Republicans for like $50 billion cut in spending, and then it was found that nothing was really cut for no savings? The reality is that Democrats are antithetical to cutting spending. It's not in their interests to do so, because spending goes to growing the dependent class, which is the natural Democratic constituency. I do not trust Dems to cut a dime. Haven't you noticed that most of Obama's spending cuts are only showing up in extended projections into the future? I always see those nice graphs, extending 5-8 years out on how nicely our deficit will be cut if only we follow Obama's great path? Nonsense. It will never pan out.

We'll have to disagree on Romney. I don't mind his 15% tax rate on investment income, and I hope that my investments, that are actually my already taxed income money, will not be taxed at a higher rate than that. I would support closing many of the loopholes the wealthy utilize to protect their earnings, as well as many of the corporate loopholes, but I would not raise the rates. Like Bill Clinton said that he would actually lower the corporate tax rate, if the loopholes were closed, I'd support that.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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A couple times in this thread...

...you've mentioned that the dependent class is the Democrats' natural constituency, and that Democrats want to grow that class.  If I thought that was the case, I would never vote for Obama or any other Democrat.  I'm not dependent on the government and I don't want to be.  My core philosophy is that it is incumbent on able bodied people to find their place in this world on their own.   But fortunately, Obama and most Democrats do not want to create dependent people any more than you or I want to create dependent people.  We all want the same thing-- an economy that provides opportunities and jobs, so that most able bodied and able minded individuals aren't dependent on government assistance.

But when millions of people are put out of work and can't find a job because of an economic crisis over which they have no control, I'm not going to stick to my core philosophy and say "tough luck, you're on your own".  Neither do most Democrats.  In bad times, they vote for stuff like unemployment insurance extensions so that people can put food on the table and pay their rent even when they are out of work for quite a while.  Not only does that save many families from having their whole lives overturned, it's solid economic policy in a recession-- unemployment insurance benefits have one of the highest multiplier effects of any government spending in a recession, because the vast majority of the money is spent almost immediately and is churned into the economy.  Maybe you do not agree that the economy should be stimulated at all during a recession since you are a self-professed libertarian on the economy, but even if that is the case, please recognize that providing this kind of assistance has a solid foundation in Keynesian economics-- it's not just giveaways to create a dependent class and get votes. 

Now, it is correct that good Democrats do look out for those who are dependent-- the elderly, children, and the disabled-- and this no doubt garners them some votes.  I make no apologies whatsoever for voting for those who will craft policies to help people who legitimately need it.  I will enthusiastically vote for Obama or anyone else who will fight against Paul Ryan or anyone else who would vote to scrap Medicare as we know it but won't vote to raise taxes on Mitt Romney and his ilk above their current 15%.  When I vote this way, I am not voting for myself-- I am neither elderly not disabled-- I simply want a society in which those who cannot fend for themselves are provided for.  I would gladly pay a little more in tax to provide this help.  However, looking at our tax policy objectively, since I am already paying a much higher income tax rate than Mitt Romney, it only makes sense to me that his taxes should at least be raised to the level of mine before mine are raised!

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Regarding you thoughts on Romney's tax rate

You say:

I don't mind [Romney's] 15% tax rate on investment income, and I hope that my investments, that are actually my already taxed income money, will not be taxed at a higher rate than that. I would support closing many of the loopholes the wealthy utilize to protect their earnings, as well as many of the corporate loopholes, but I would not raise the rates.

All fine and good.  I'm not talking about raising your rate on your investments.  Mitt's 15% rate-- not the 15% capital gains rate that he gets on his own long term investments, but the 15% rate on carried interest that he has gotten on his income from Bain-- is exactly that... a tax loophole for the rich. 

Think about how you and I get to be taxed at a 15% rate.  If you're like me, and from what I know about you I am pretty sure you are, you save some money from your job, after that money has been taxed at the normal income rate, you have the opportunity to make certain types of long term investments which are taxed at the capital gains rate.  If those investments make money, you get taxed at 15% on that portion of your income.  There is risk in the investments we make to get that 15% rate, however, and If our investments lose money, we cannot offset those losses against your normal income we get from our paychecks (except for a nominal $3000 per year). 

Compare that to Mitt Romney.  Romney was a managing partner at Bain Capital, management being the operative word-- he was managing investments on behalf of Bain, not investing directly on behalf of himself.  He was personally insulated from any risk of losses on the investments Bain made.  Yet, taking no personal risk of losing money, income from Bain's long term investments was permitted to be passed through to Romney as income at the long term capital gains rate of 15%, rather than as ordinary income to be taxed at ordinary income rates.

Romney's tax advantage doesn't stop there.  As I mentioned before, when you or I lose money on our capital investments, we can't just offset them against our income we get from our paychecks.  Romney can!  So for example when I sold stock during the crash of 2008, I had a negative net income for the year... but I still had to pay income tax, because I could not offset my stock market losses agaisnt my ordinary income.  If Romney had losses from stock sales in 2008, he could use those losses to offset his income from Bain, and potentially could have paid less tax than me!

And what is this noble endeavor for which Romney gets huge tax advantages over folks like you and I?  Oftentimes, it is by buying the companies for which we work and firing us, or by buying these companies and saddling them with enormous amounts of debt, and paying himself a huge fee from those loan proceeds.  Romney's role in the economy was neither better nor more necessary than yours or mine.  In fact, the economy grew faster and seemed to work better before private equity firms became a significant factor in the economy in the 1980s.  Since then, wages have stagnated and the middle class has been eroded.  The only folks who have seemingly benefitted are the private equity guys themselves, at the expense of everyone else!

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Here's a big part of the rub, skymutt:

When times are tough, people often revert to much more basic ways of thinking and acting.  Emotion, rather than logic, takes over, sending people into survival mode, which is the so-called lizard brain.  That's why people often turn to fundamentalism in many forms, including religion and guns, etc., for survival.  All too often, there's a tendency to scapegoat people who are different from them in some way or other, whether it be race, ethnicity, color, gender,  sexual orientation, and even people with learning and developmental disabilities, for example.  

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Of course, no point in flogging a dead horse.

I have plenty of friends who like to debate politics. Unfortunately half of them are Canadian and nearly all would be bluebars, so it wouldn't exactly improve the balance. I can think of two ways to up the traffic:
- Someone writes something brilliant that gets picked up on Huffpo or somewhere and we get lots of pass-through hits;
- We have a "Promote SC" day and collectively link here from facebook accounts, emails, other blogs, etc.

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heh

I wouldn't count on your first way happening anytime soon :) But to slowly advertise here and there, on various blogs, and even facebook might be ok.

Before that happens, I would need to do a little refresh here. Let me see if I can summon the resolve.

I'd need to update the software (not too hard), update the links and the header graphic, and start posting again :)

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Agreed.

I've been away far too long. Rereading some older threads reminded me of how fun sparring here could be. Problem for me is it gets addictive, and when a work priority comes up I have to cut myself off.

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Good to See Yall back!

 I'll return if you guys do! So far, it looks like santorum is doing his best "Comeback Kid" impression. Super Turesday will probably tell the story. I just don't see what people see in Gingrich, other than "He's not Mitt." Mitt kinda reminds me of Kerry in 2004. People will reluctantly get behind him and the election seems tailored for a potential victory for him (a War hero in 04' to go at Bush, a Business Man to go after Obama now), but he seems to get flustered and not articulate. 

 

As for whether he's smarter than Obama, I don't think it matters much. "Smart" candidates don't usually win. It's whoever has the best lines. And if the economy keeps improving, it will be really hard for Romney's "Obama inherited a bad economy but made it worse" line to resonate. 

http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186

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hey Charles!

Good to see you too bud. The Michigan/Arizona primaries, and super Tuesday will be lots of fun. I think Gingrich will fall by the wayside as Santorum will compete head to head with Romney, and I hope Romney will prevail.

General election is a whole different animal, and I think there will be a strong desire for change. I think Romney is a genius, but geniuses don't always present well. He probably overthinks things and the natural good lines don't always come out. It's a problem, but if Bush could do it with his foot in mouth disease, I know Romney can.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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It is good to see a few people back,

I guess I'm not the only one who checks back here every once in a while, just in case someone has popped in.  It promises to be an exciting election year, and I'll certainly be around to stir the pot if others are commenting.

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Good to Be Back

 I have my e-mail set up so that when a new comment is added, I get an alert. Plus I have it in my Google Reader. When both of those popped up, I thought "Oh good! They're back!" Guess I need to update my bio. PLus, this is cool because its one of the few sites I can access during the week. (Redstate, LGF, the Forvm, all blocked.) DK gets through though (?) Oh well, look forward to seeing you guys debate again.

http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186

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2012 is already 3/4 of the way over!

Time goes by awfully fast, especially nowadays!

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