Tuesday Open Thread

Sen Lugar (R-IN) says that "Bush's Iraq strategy was not working and that the United States should downsize the military's role."

I disagree with the liberal MSM characterization of Lugar as the "key GOP senator" because he is far from being "key" of anything. He is an intelligent moderate Republican who's been making noise about the war before, and while this is a significant change, it is still just one Republican.

In other news, Paris Hilton is out of jail. This is an Open Thread.

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I like the orange

so I changed my settings accordingly and temporarily :)

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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The gold is nice

much better than the yellow. Or maybe it's just this monitor.

But you are fooling yourself. Red is your color. Imagine voting for a Dem, and see if I'm wrong ;}

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

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What no paisley for me?

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yes red is my color

but I like the objectivist monicker :) I should probably change it so objectivist is red because frankly most objectivists are right wing.

The big difference between objectivists and libertarians is that objectivists believe that government's rightful function is to protect our country and our rights through military action if necessary, including taking the fight to the enemy like Islamofascists.

Objectivists also believe that a small amount of government in general is absolutely necessary, not just to protect our safety but also to guarantee our rights.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Not fair Ender

The big difference between objectivists and libertarians is that objectivists believe that government's rightful function is to protect our country and our rights through military action if necessary, including taking the fight to the enemy like Islamofascists.

While I do not want to and will not get into a foreign policy discussion here, let me just say that defending the country is a rightful duty of government and no libertarians would object to that.

The wrinkle is how we define "defense" and "protection" and the faith we put in the effectiveness of some actions that you would classify as such and I, for example, would not.

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well true

it is the foreign policy protectionism that I object to. I guess I should've put more stress on the "including taking the fight to the enemy like Islamofascists".

Good offense and good defense can be indistinguishable and I am much more willing to do whatever it takes if it is in our country's interests.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Sounds great...

...taking the fight to the enemy like Islamofascists

But what does that mean? I mean, I know it's intended to sound tough, and proactive rather than reactive, and all that kind of stuff. But aside from being a sort of clumsy testosterone laden catchphrase that is designed to make the issuer seem to have big testicles or something, what exactly does it mean to say this?

What is an Islamofascist? Is that who we're fighting in Iraq?

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

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you can't always automatically

attach any ideological statement to the current policy, especially policy that I repeatedly castigated as not truly relevant to the war on terror.

I'll be brief.

Islamofascist ideology is the ideology of radical militant Islam that promotes violent overthrow or murder or jihad against the unbelievers. Islamofascist ideology is irrational force that is dangerous because it is proactive in its adherents' desire to make the rest of the World bow to their will and subjugate those who do not adhere or pay tribute to it. It's also the same ideology that provoked violent protests and threats when people in Western countries dared to exercise their freedom of speech (Denmark for example).

Those thugs need to be fought and either destroyed or cowed into not being a threat to the civilized world. I would fight them in all countries where they are present, using CIA and Special Forces to assassinate their leaders and strike terror in their followers. I would destroy governments granting that evil refuge in their countries. That is how I would take the fight to the enemy.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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The other night

I caught a pre-game interview with a WNBA player who asserted that to win the upcoming basketball contest, her team had to "take the game to" the opponent, rather than letting the game come to them.

But aside from being a sort of clumsy estrogen-laden catchphrase that is designed to make the issuer seem to have big ovaries or something, what exactly does it mean to say this?

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I think I've answered

what it meant to have geopolitically big ovaries in my comment above.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Oh jeez

I have to go to work so I don't have time for more, but jeez I love you guys.

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

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hehe

don't be a stranger bud :)

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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But you forgot....

Nuke 'em!

You know, lay the big egg on 'em!

Albumenate them.

Put them through a painful period which cramps their style.

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lol

I am sorry I forgot to take my estrogen supplements.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Point taken

But i simply have a different opinion on that entire outlook and courses of action to make real progress.

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yeah

and I unfairly generalized, but I definitely disagree with Ron Paul's (taking someone you admire) foreign policy views.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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well then we agree to disagree

this a common problem I have with conservatives and it comes with the territory. I just don't see things the same way. And yes, as Republicans go, I'm definitely in Ron Paul camp more than any others.

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Ayn Rand's foreign policy

We will force you to spend your money altruistically overseas to help people....

Yet you shouldn't force me to spend money altruistically helping people in my own country.

They seem to be disgusted by altruism (we want to chose who to help) in their homeland and govt, but advocate strongly for altruistic foreign policy (we will chose for you which foreign lands to build a govt for).

Does that make sense to you? It doesn't to me.

It is the economy, stupid.

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why are you attributing

Bush's current policies to Ayn Rand's ideology? Get a clue.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Get a clue?

Give me one.

It is the economy, stupid.

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Ayn Rand has little to nothing to do with Bush

Seriously.

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I didn't mean to imply that he did

I have just noticed that Rand supporters are often gung ho on the war in Iraq.

Is that an incorrect assumption?

It is the economy, stupid.

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Lugar is definitely a key Senator

The simple fact that he is the Ranking Member on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, the key committe regarding Iraq policy and greater Middle East policy, makes him a key Senator on Iraq. 

You can also add in the fact that Lugar has been in the Senate since probably about when you were born and is widely respected on both sides of the aisle, and you've got a really key Senator.

For your future reference, here's a list of the key Republican Senators on Iraq:

1. McConnell, because he's the leader

2. Lott, because he was the leader once, and is now 2nd in command

3. McCain, because he's the ranking member on the Armed Services Committee

4. Lugar 

5. Lindsey Graham because he's a veteran, on the Armed Services committee, and is on the Sunday Morning shows a lot

6. Chuck Hagel, war hero, is on the Sunday Morning show a lot, and was the first Republican to turn against the Iraq War

7. John Warner, veteran, elder statesman, was the Armed Services Committee Chairman until the last election

 

That's the list.  If anyone calls any other Repblican Senator a "key" Senator on Iraq, they're lying to you ;-)

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I assume you mean

that Chuck Hagel was the first Republican senator to turnm against the war, but that would be wrong.

I think Lincoln Chafee beat him to it.

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I will claim, on a technicality here...

...that Linc voted against the war before it started, and therefore did not "turn" against it.

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I actually

thought of that.

But I have it on psychic authority that for an instant, Chafee considered the authorization meritorious on balance, and then turned against it.

He was better than Kerry, being against it before it was anything to be against.

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Psyschic connection with Linc duly noted...

...but would you believe that within that instant in which you were psychically connected to Linc Chafee, I was psychically connected to Chuck Hagel-- and would you believe that he made an even faster turn against the war than Chafee, only to switch back to a pro-war stance just as quickly... he then remained pro-war for the next couple of years befor finally turning against the war, and the rest is history.

 

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I'd say

if i were you, I'd Chuck Hagel and Linc Chaffee instead.

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I might...

...Chuck Grassley, but I'd never Chuck Hagel...

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Chuck Hagel

(someone had to do it)

How much hagel could Chuck Hagel chuck, if Chuck Hagel could chuck hagel?

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Hopefully common sense will prevail

Not sure what changed Lugar's mind, but good for him.

"The window during which we can continue to employ American troops in Iraqi neighborhoods without damaging our military strength, or our ability to respond to other national security priorities, is closing. The United States military remains the strongest fighting force in the world, but we have to be mindful that it is not indestructible."

Politically speaking staying in Iraq is a death trap for Republicans. But wisdom also says that our military as Lugar points out is not indestructible.

I note this is essnetially the Murtha plan, redeploying troops into Kuwait so our troops are no longer sitting ducks in the middle of a civil war.

(BTW the site seems to have slowed to a crawl)

It is the economy, stupid.

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Wrong question

"Did Missouri execute an innocent man?" is the title of this piece about a report coming soon.

Innocence is hard to definitely establish, especially 12 years later. The proper question should be, is there sufficient evidence (beyond a reasonable doubt) that this man committed the crime for which he was executed.

"Maybe" shouldn't be an acceptable answer. Regardless of the findings of the report, Missouri at best executed a man on a tenuous case.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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the whole idea

that some convictions might have been less than perfect should not destroy an important method of punishment.

Nothing will ever be perfect but vile criminals still need to be executed.

Same with Gitmo.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Set aside for a moment

that this case is being viewed as a means to challenge executions in general. Just reading the CNN story, do you think the evidence against Griffin was sufficient to execute him?

How many "less than perfect" executions are we willing to tolerate?

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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wavering witnesses after conviction

and appeals is bs, and I am satisfied with what happened in this case.

Make DNA evidence used everywhere where it's applicable, and keep the Death Penalty chugging along. That is justice and it must not be taken out. There are plenty of people who deserve it.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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check out Todd Willingham

Texas executed Cameron Todd Willingham back in '03 for setting the fire that killed his kids. Turned out he was convicted because the fire was deemed arson based on since-disproved theories of fire science. Rick Perry knew that the science that convicted Willingham had been disproved and wouldn't last five minutes in a modern courtroom, and that, under Texas law, a fire that cannot be proven arson must be considered accidental. So Perry did the only thing he thought he could--he ignored the science and the pleas from those who knew the case was bogus, and allowed the execution to be carried out unimpeded.

The state forensic review board, established after another scandalous case involving half-assed science from state labs, is currently reviewing the case. Willingham remains dead.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/na/chi-0412090169dec09,1,...

Don't you remember at the Constitutional Convention when they all decided that there needed to be an unaccoubtable, unchecked politician immediately behind the President in the line of succession? Was that a great idea bound to increase the security of o

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Thanks

Another case where innocence or guilt is difficult to conclusively establish but there's clearly not enough evidence to justify execution.

The appeals process seems to be broken with respect to taking into account updated information, such as changes in witness testimony or new forensics.

A lot of the formerly cutting edge forensics turned out not to be that accurate. Arson and also stuff with hair, IIRC. Questionable methods of identification also used to be widespread. Thank god for DNA, but DNA doesn't apply or isn't available in all cases even today.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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By the way, haven't seen you here before,

so welcome to SC!

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Trevino takes aim at Objectivism

Article here . Not surprising that his Christian morals conflict with Rand's philosophy of virtuous selfishness, but he makes a broader argument that these morals are innate to humanity and hence Objectivism is inherently a fringe movement.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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What an

utterly odd thing to say!

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It does appear that Joshua is trying to meld two

competing philosophies.

What I like here is that he doesn't propose an answer, but allows details to speak for themselves.

My self, I find Ayn Rand abhorant. There's enlightened self interest and then there's unobstructed selfishness. The two aren't even in the same league.

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So I take it

that you prefer "unobstructed selfishness." Sort of the core, gut philosophy of baby boomers.

"I want it, and I want it now."

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No.

But I do frequently promote enlightened self interest. ie - helping yourself while also helping others.

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Ayn Rand

would be down with that. In fact, she promoted it.

What she opposed was altruism, which says that others have claims on you such that you must act in their interest even at the expense of your own.

A particular example she gave was that of a railroad allowing those who could not afford tickets to ride for free in unsold seats.

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just because certain "moral principles"

are shared by most faiths (including the major ones) does not make them innate to humanity. In fact some of that morality is intentionally contrived to better suppress rational thought, individuality, and freedom in order to further control of the large masses. I am not arguing that it was not necessary through long early periods of our history - controlling the superstitious and unruly primitives was important.

But I would argue that as humanity develops and matures, and our understanding of our rights and freedom improves we should slowly graduate from the early and superficial morality of the religions towards morality better suited for free men.

I think Trevino's first half, that was completely composed of silly attacks on the individuals within the Objectivist leadership, is as pertinent as the attack on Catholicism completely composed of examining the actions of every stupid and corrupt Pope in the history of the Church.

[edit] Trevino's last paragraph is an absurdity that can be summed up with "because most people believe it, it must be moral," with a topping of nonsensical "call of wisdom, and of history" that falls apart if we examine the extreme immorality and mayhem prevalent through our earlier ages.

Woohoo I like being in my Objectivist mode :)

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Good answer, but...

it seems to me that one of the reasons for the success of religions was that they echoed and codified natural behavior. "Do unto others" and all that is hardly a uniquely religious concept. You're right, religions held a bit of a monopoly on morality in the past, and I certainly agree that sometimes theology was modified to serve political ends, but as we enter this brave new world of free men and new morality I don't see Objectivism alone as the answer. If we're discarding organized religion (and that's not entirely clear in the US, at any rate), we don't seem to be embracing the virtues of selfishness either.

A practical illustration, more on track for a political discussion: liberals are often atheist, sometimes militantly so, and yet they are also generally against "selfishness" as they see it. One can certainly argue with either their methods or the sincerity of their convictions, but I think we may accept that people who dismiss religion don't necessarily embrace the principles of Objectivism -- the opposite seems more true.

It's not religion, it's people that you'll have to change. Some aspects of Rand's philosophy are now mainstream, but I don't think we'll view altruism negatively anytime soon.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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What an

it seems to me that one of the reasons for the success of religions was that they echoed and codified natural behavior.

...utterly odd thing to say!

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Alright, second time's the charm

What's so utterly odd about it? Organized religion was created by people, why wouldn't it reflect the values of said people? Organized religion clearly appealed* to many people throughout history, and people don't generally act against their natural instincts. I submit religion makes us feel good about our natural tendency towards altruism, not that it overcomes our aversion to it.

* Obviously granted that the followers of organized religion did some horrific things to people who weren't sufficiently quick to make clear just how much that religion appealed to them.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Consider, for a moment, this old saw....

If two year olds had guns, there would be no parents.

In fact, religion does not so much express natural instincts, as seek to control them.

The inclusive fitness arguments for seemingly altruistic behaviour from sociobiology need not result in religion.

I think Nietzsche's answer is closer. He spent a lot of time thinking about a question that puzzled him from the time he was ten: how is it that religions, so obviously built on lies, have survived and become pervasive? His answer, roughly stated, is that certain religions have physiological value for members of societies that have adopted them. He notes, for instance, that a relative cleanliness is usually promoted by religions. And he notes that it is obvious that truth may not be as important for our survival as we like to think it is.

His analysis is much deeper than this, of course.

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Physiological value

Yeah, I buy that's part of it. Psychological value, too -- it's nice to have security and stability. Heck, it's been suggested that lots of religious people just manage to convince themselves that they are religious -- suggesting, to me, that it's the "side benefits" that are really attractive.

But let's flip the argument and look at how successful religion has been at controlling baser natural instincts. Throughout history, has it cut down on wars? Reduced theft? Prevented unjust persecution? It's a difficult (not impossible!) argument to make, no? So why then must we posit altruistic behavior is a result of religious control, rather than another natural impulse that in this case is encouraged rather than suppressed? (I might further suggest that it is encouraged because those who over the years shaped the religion viewed it as positive.)

The inclusive fitness arguments for seemingly altruistic behaviour from sociobiology need not result in religion.

I don't think I follow this completely; on first read, it seems like you're suggesting altruism (or seeming altruism) can arise naturally independent of religion.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Different realms

Just to interject a minor point:

Religion, specifically Christianity, works on the personal level only, IMHO. The effects you describe (war, theft, persecution) normally occur on the societal level. In other words, mob and social mentality often override personal mentality. So I think it is unreasonable to expect Christianity to be an effective check on the actions of a society. That would not be my criteria for determining a "successful" religion.

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

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This is sort of

a philosophical view of religion. It emphasizes the belief over the practice. Note that the framers of the constitution thought of freedom of religion as freedom of practice, not simply freedom of belief.

For religion, mangling penises is more important that simply believing in one god.

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Ok, well let's find an example

of an innate personal trait that Christianity (or whatever religion) successfully repressed, and that non-Christian (or whatever) societies did not. This will allow us to determine whether religion can in fact control (personal) human behavior or whether it merely gently modifies preexisting preferences.

Not necessarily completely conceding your point (at the very least the King/Pope who endorses a war of conquest or an inquisition makes a personal decision) but I appreciate the distinction.

Also would like to find an example of a society in which altruism does not occur, or is strongly discouraged, if I am to be convinced that it is not a natural trait.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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That's easy

Sex. Or the desire for sex, to phrase it in terms of a personal trait

Christianity tries to limit that to monogamous marriages only for procreation, and did impose that limitation for centuries. Still tries to do so today but with much less success, thanks to the advent of effective birth control.

Contrast that with the most famous example of sexual behavior in a non-Christian society, the Samoans of Margaret Mead's time.

Could also say the desire for food (fasting), the desire for power (penance, guilt), etc.

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

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Yes, they have been pretty successful

at altering behavior towards sex, haven't they?

Ok, I give on that point.

Just curious, what do you think about altruism, is it natural or dictated?

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Somewhat ambivalent

But I tend to lean towards the research Madscientist quoted: acts of real altrusim (not heroism) may have a genetic basis. By helping those close to you----and in our earliest societies practically all were related to you somehow---you helped foster the continuance of your genetic heritage.

Heroism maybe a conscious outgrowth of that. When faced with the need for a quick decision, the hero may draw from the genetic aspects of altrusim and add a sprinkle of his own egotism and self-expectations.

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

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Yes

you're suggesting altruism (or seeming altruism) can arise naturally independent of religion.

Yes. Roughly, the theory, now under some attack, is that since fitness means precisely getting copies of our genes into succeeding generations, then we can increase our own fitness by helping our close relatives get their genes into succeeding generations, since we would share genes with them. Much as incest taboos arise naturally (not from religion) because offspring of relatives closer than first cousins reduces fitness, behaviour which looks altruistic arises because it increases fitness. But the extension of this behaviour past close relatives depends on degree of relatedness.

Throughout history, has it cut down on wars? Reduced theft? Prevented unjust persecution? It's a difficult (not impossible!) argument to make, no?

I would say yes. War is a special case. One could say that religion reduces manslaughter, but wars are most often examples where we, the human beings, seek to destroy them, who are not like us.

It is true that a bunch of people with their oinstincts under control are ripe for someone to come along an use them, and that's how governments are born.

Another old saw saw says:

Civilizations rise on religion, decline with philosophy.

Religion require sameness, philosophy individualizes.

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Gotcha

So it's a biological explanation of altruism as virtuous selfishness, in essence.

Fine, but once we go down that road (and we can get there via philosophy as well as biology: the guy gave away his money because he selfishly enjoyed feeling good about himself) there's nothing left to discuss. Every behavior can be explained in terms of rational self-interest at some level.

I could make the argument the other way too -- every millionaire who selfishly refuses to give away a penny is really making the most efficient use of his money for the betterment of society as a whole. Selfishness is just rational altruism. People are biologically programmed to care about themselves more than others because internal competition is the best way to advance humanity.

I'm not sure where that gets us, though.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Nope

It is an explanation from sociobiology of how certain behaviours that appear altruistic arose. In this case, inclusive fitness shows that the behaviours are maintained because they increase fitness. So, for instance, a mother "sacrificing" herself for her children is increasing her fitness (prospectively).

It is more difficult to explain actual altruistic behaviour where the fitness of the "sacrificer" does not appear to increase. One approach is to look at expectations of reciprocity. (I'll push the lady out of the way of the truck and get killed myself because if such behaviour is encouraged, down the line someone may do something similar to someone who carries copies of some of my genes.)

Believe me, nothing about this has anything to do with "advancing humanity." We normally don't think of animals being programmed by their genes to work for the betterment of collective nouns.

But, if you are interested in "altruistic" behaviour, you should love this little item. It should still be available, but will be unavailable in about a week or so. I was going to write a piece about how this applies to liberals (who just love to give whether it's their money or yours) and conservatives (who often love to give, but only their own money.) Read this and see who the altruists really are, if any. Go quickly, it's short, but if you can't get in, let me know.)

This one just went up and should be available for about four weeks, about altruism in chimps.

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Interesting

Students exhibiting pure altruist behavior ponied up twice as much money as their "warm glow"-only counterparts, the team reports.

I thought the way it was supposed to work was that people inclined to spend the money of others for worthy causes (liberals) spent less of their own.

I guess by your (apparent) definition the true altruists here would be the few students who gave money but didn't experience a "warm glow" after doing so.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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True altruists

I guess by your (apparent) definition the true altruists here would be the few students who gave money but didn't experience a "warm glow" after doing so.

I guess that would be true.

There is a lot going on here, some not covered in this item or the actual report of the research.

Every society needs public goods, but the mechanisms used to fund them vary. For example, taxation and government spending are lower in the United States than in most European countries, but philanthropy is higher (1). To economists, this charitable giving is a puzzle: Money is a good, so why are people willing to give it away? One possible explanation is in terms of a "pure altruism" motive (2). Individuals with such a motive receive satisfaction from increases in a public good, such as the provision of basic services to the needy. This altruistic concern provides a motive to give, but there is also an incentive to keep money for oneself, because the cost of such charity is entirely paid by the giver, whereas the benefits are spread out over all those people who care about the needy....A second possible motive for charitable giving is the sense of agency associated with the act of voluntary giving. This reward from giving has been termed "warm glow" (3, 4). If givers were driven exclusively by the warm-glow motive, they should derive satisfaction from making a voluntary gift, rather than from the increase in the level of the public good itself. On the other hand, taxation should not produce a warm glow, because paying taxes typically does not involve a voluntary choice.

One thing not mentioned here is perception. In this experiment, there was absolute perception ofg the good. But it may not be so obvious that one's taxers are going to good. So one's little story one tells oneself about taxes may be important for developing a warm glow.

Another thing that I'd like to see studied is what sociologists sometimes call "spite." Technically, spite arises when unrelated animals are killed or harmed in such a way that one's fitness is raised, usually because one's relatives benefit. One can imagine a situation where spite increasews fitness even though it may come at a cost to oneself. Taxation may fall into this class. The many impassioned to tax the rich seem like spite, and sometimes these arguments are made by people who would suffer from the tax increase. In fact, almost all tax increases eventually affect the middle class, so sometimes it seems that the call for higher taxes for "the public good" may just be spite. It may be the crab pot phenomenon.

I was going to quote from the actual report, but maybe I'll save that.

Another avenue is study whether the "warm glow" is addictive, as are many activating stimuli in the areas activated. Those who react more to giving, relatively, and those who react as "pure altruists" would be more likely to be addicted, the pure altruists because they have more activating events.

Discussed in the article are "egoists," whose activation for receiving money is very high, and have less of a tendency to give it away.

It reminds me of what the good kid I grew up with once said, "It's always been easy for me to be good, it just seemed natural. To me, a saint iis someone who has not endency to do good, but overcomes this lack of tendency or even a tendency to do evil to do the right thing."

Maybe I'll write this up.

In America, philanthropy (see quote above) is often a source of resentment, based on the notion that the philanthropist gets to choose where he puts his money, but the taxpayer does not. Given that we typically lesson taxes based on charitable giving, the common taxpayer can sometimes be raised to calls for spite. Years ago, on Phil Donahue's daytime show, he had as a guest a man who had paid no taxes the year before despite making millions. The reason was that he had given so muuch money to charity that it had canceled his tax burden. It turned out that he had to give about four times the amount of the taxes he would have paid to cancel it. He listed his charities, and all in Phil's audience agreed that they were good causes, and that they paralleled in almost all cases government programs.

Yet the audience quickly became an angry mob. The resentment was so thick that it was palpable. The one rational argument was that by not paying taxes, he had raised everyone else's taxes. The man admitted that this might be true, but pointed out that since he had contributed more money to parallel programs than his taxes would have been, the fault would lie with the politicians.

At one point he pleaded that it wasn't as if he had any use of the money, meaning that he had the same relationship to his donated money that the audience had with their taxes. The audience was not mollified, and it was apparent that they resented his ability to direct his donations. The calculus seemed to be that the ability to direct where the money that you can't use us spent is worth much more than four times what you would pay for taxes, and so the man who paid no taxes got off cheap. I wonder what the audience thought the true value was? Seven times? Twelve times? A hundred times?

I wonder if some limited ability to earmark one's taxes might make us feel better, and less spiteful.

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Yeah, you should toss some of this stuff in a diary

When I saw the altruism/selfishness conversation headed in the altruism=selfishness direction I figured it was a dead end, but this has turned out quite interesting to me anyway.

I think limited earmarks in taxes are a great idea.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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This isn't fair

You get to discuss altruism as unconscious selfishness based on biological feedback, but I can't discuss selfishness as rational altruism (just to make a point) because (a) you don't agree that individuals care about the collective, only their particular relatives and (b) altruism almost demands conscious intent.

Bah!

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Well, Brendan, not quite

What we are talking about is biological drivers for what looks like altruistic behaviour. this does not rule out altruistic behaviour for which we have no biological explanation.

One biological explanation has to do with "group selction,." in which the group, rather than genes or the organism, is the subject of fitness. In this model, the group's fitness may be elevated by a tendency to altruism outside of close relatives. I must admit that I have always vbbeen unconvinced by this non-Darwinian selection. but maybe i am too influenced by a professor i had who promised an "A" in the course to anyone who could explain group selection to him in a way that made sense to him. The mathematicians came up with models that worked, but only for extreme conditions unlikely to arise in reality.

Despite my professor and others' objections, the theory still has its adherents.

And nothing I've said or referred to precludes someone reaching a rational philosophical conclusion that altruism is right morally for oneself.

I should note that at the bottom of the news item I linked and you read was this link to a pretty good discussion of "biological altruism." The article gets a little unnecessarily detailed, but is quite good overall.

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but

I did not make the claim that the principles of Objectivism were the best fit to human nature, nor is it necessarily the answer.

I strongly disagree that religions echoed and codified natural behavior. What is more true is that religions exposed and codified the most potentially disruptive societal behavior for those times and the negative reinforcements far far outweighed those common logical lightweight statements like "do unto others" which is almost an afterthought in the main 3 religions.

Self-interested behavior had much more potential to be disruptive back in the day without a strong moral foundation for fair and free societies.

Liberals discard religion for the mostly simple disagreement over the antiquated behavioral prohibitions out of place in the modern society. The desire to engage and let others engage in religiously prohibited activity, as well as the organized religion's undue influence over the masses drives the rebellion for many of these liberals, and not necessarily some logical and rationallly grounded atheism.

But liberals want to substitute their own influence over the masses (common good, social responsibility, wealth redistribution, etc) as a replacement for the Religious or Socially Conservative influence over our behavior. I oppose both liberal and religious influence, though the liberal influence being much more ascendant is much more scary.

In a way objectivists defend our ability to act in our own self-interest without unfairly infringing on anyone else's ability to do the same, without any undue communal/collectivist influences from anyone and especially our government.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Structures

But liberals want to substitute their own influence over the masses (common good, social responsibility, wealth redistribution, etc) as a replacement for the Religious or Socially Conservative influence over our behavior. I oppose both liberal and religious influence, though the liberal influence being much more ascendant is much more scary.

Which is why I continue to have grudging respect for Catholicism. It's had a couple of millenia to codify and explain the details of its social construct, unlike the many flavors of Protestantism and of liberalism whose definitions are more fluid and thus, I agree, more scary in that they are less predictable.

I don't know how humanity can ever escape some sort of imposed influence though. There will always be those who desire to place their definitions upon society.

I don't understand objectivism well enough to evaluate it, but Trevino's comparison of the examples he uses rings a bit false to me. I don't see as much difference as he obviously does.

(Although I could be wrong. I have not yet found the Trevino decoder ring and still find his prose to be somewhat imprecise.)

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

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not to be coarse but yes

religion is the evil we know as it has existed in a fairly similar form for millennia, even protestantism that is pretty stable even if minority fundamentalist. Well frankly liberalism is also the evil we know because similar communal controls have been tried with various degrees of extremism throughout the last 100 years.

The problem is there is nothing new about the social aspects of liberalism. It is a very simple supression of individualism in favor of the masses with a litany of communal benefits as excuses. The basic precept is that individuals cannot be trusted to do what is best for themselves and that community's needs are paramount even if that infringes on individual liberty. With that comes the idea that both sacrifice and achievement must be shared as that creates the most stable society. We, on the Right do not agree that it is fair to share what is individually earned or is an individual's fault. There is a difference of how responsibility is perceived.

The communal aspect of organized Religions reinforces some of liberal ideas about sharing responsibility and wealth, in addition to subjugating Man to irrational power and rules, which is why it is strongly opposed by those of the more libertarian/objectivist persuasion.

I think Ayn Rand was a prophet at a time when all the evils of US-style liberalism were not yet well known.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Today's Cheney Cliff notes.

From one of this mornings SF Chronicle op-eds:

"He doesn't want any facts revealed. He wants to avoid at all costs the notion that he is working for the American people and is thus accountable to them in any way. At a time when governmental transparency is all the rage, he seeks governmental opacity. He's trying for the perks of dictatorship without the requisite infrastructure -- and, most of the time, he's getting those perks."

Another editorial in today's Chronicle titled Out of Control:

"In view of Cheney's history of fierce resistance to the most basic elements of oversight, perhaps no one should be surprised that the vice president would try to block the National Archives' routine attempt to collect data from his office on how much information he is classifying and declassifying. But this Cheney stonewall is remarkable because it involves the fulfillment of a presidential order. Even more bizarre is his rationale for why his office should be exempt. Cheney essentially invokes a separation of powers argument because of his legislative branch duties. Under the U.S. Constitution, Cheney does serve as president of the Senate, and can be called upon to break tie votes. But the idea that he is "not an entity within the executive branch," and thus exempt from a presidential order, is both ludicrous and chilling. So much for Dick Cheney's talk about the principle of restoring the powers of the presidency. This latest flap is about the arrogance and contempt for accountability of one vice president: him."

And lastly from todays Washington Post an article titled GOP Plan to Oust Cheney:

"As the reputed architect of the war in Iraq, Cheney is viewed as toxic, and as the administration's leading proponent of an attack on Iran, he is seen as dangerous. As long as he remains vice president, according to this thinking, he has the potential to drag down every member of the party -- including the presidential nominee -- in next year's elections."

Do I believe that the GOP will actually consider dumping Cheney? Absolutely not! But I do think they'd float an article to their surrogate the WaPo making it look like they're concerned. Are they concerned? Nope. The Administration doesn't care about next years elections as much as they care about Administration egos. Sitting Republican Representatives....well, you're SOOL with these guys. Sorry.

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Dunno sir.

I think there are plenty of Republicans who'd love to jettison the VP. The problem is that they can't. They party has no power over him. I don't think the President has any real power over him, anymore. The courts don't either. Noone does. Do they?

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

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Worth the admission price

After spending parts of the night reading the Hein (warning: pdf