Friday Open Thread

Whoooooooooohooooo it's Friday! Short week for me :)

NASA has agreed to pay $19 million for a Russian-built toilet system for the international space station. The figure may sound astronomical for a toilet in space, but NASA officials said it was cheaper than building their own.

Looking at that picture, I am pretty sure I could underbid that $19 mil with much better results... This is an Open Thread.

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I'm gone until Wednesday

Going to a wedding and taking the scenic route back. I might have wireless at some points, not sure.

Have a great weekend!

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Enjoy it bud!

Hope you have fun over there, wherever you go :)

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Have a great time!

Hope you have time to check in on us from time to time and make sure we are all playing nice. :)

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Popular weekend for weddings

07/07/07

Easy to remember.

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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Ha, good point.

For the benefit of those of us with no memory for dates, I guess.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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Breaking News - Federal Appeals Court dismisses

suit challenging Domestic Spying Program. Cool.

[edit] Court dismisses challenge to domestic spying

A federal appeals court on Friday ordered the dismissal of a lawsuit challenging President Bush’s domestic spying program, saying the plaintiffs had no standing to sue.

The ruling Friday vacates an order by a U.S. District Court in Detroit last August that found the surveillance unconstitutional, violating rights to privacy and free speech and the separation of powers.

The case will be sent back to the judge in Michigan for dismissal.

This is a victory for those who want US to be better protected with tools appropriate for the 21st century.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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It's a great victory for all freedom loving people

although I won't really feel better protected until the government reads people's minds and puts in the camps anyone who has terrorist thoughts.

Sic semper tyrannis

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Although notice

that they didn't dismiss it on its merits, they dismissed it on standing. Basically 2 of the 3 judges argued that the plaintiffs couldn't prove that they've been affected by the wiretapping, so they didn't have grounds to sue.

I'm actually only partly surprised at this. Standing is very difficult to prove in a case like this, so the plaintiffs were trying to up their chances by having a very broad group of people who could claim that the revelations about the wiretapping program have hurt their professional lives: especially journalists and lawyers who can no longer promise confidentiality. (Incidentally, Christopher Hitchens was one of the plaintiffs!)

So, it's a victory on procedural grounds, perhaps - but it's certainly no affirmation of the administration's stance.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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RE: Although notice

So, it's a victory on procedural grounds, perhaps - but it's certainly no affirmation of the administration's stance.

At least until someone OTHER THAN a group of liberal muck rakers files a VALID law suit, eh?

Although notice, the effect of this ruling IS to assert that [ Edit: Bush's program has NOT actually harmed them they were unable to prove that Bush's program harmed them in any way! ]

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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You should take a look

at the list of plaintiffs, some of whom hardly qualify as liberal muckrackers. John Dean was Nixon's legal counsel. James Bamford is the NSA historian.

They knew going in that standing would be the hardest thing to prove, since, though their professional lives have been damaged by the chilling effect of no long being able to grant confidentiality to clients, most cases of this sort require proof that the program specifically targeted them. This is a toughie, since we know nothing about the program other than its existence. But if its existence is the direct cause of the chilling effect, is that enough to grant legal standing? The judges disagreed, and split 2-1.

[edited to be less aggressive. I was cranky this morning for some reason, so I'm toning down my responses. Apologies]

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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this case aside

John Dean has been entirely too overused by liberals as some supposed "Conservative" when he hasn't been that for a long time. The guy is as liberal as they come, so maybe it is time to put to rest using his Nixonian past.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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It can certainly be said

that John Dean is a convert to religious antiBushism.

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Certainly

Since anyone saying anything negative about our beloved President is clearly acting with religious fervor. They couldn't possibly have any rational complaint against President Bush.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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I say plenty

negtive about Bush.

Dean speaks with religious fervor, almost as if he wishes to wash away his own guilt by saying that bush is worse.

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Or could it be

Or could it be that he has seen first hand the damage that authoritarianism can do to the country, and is passionate about speaking out against it? Are you reading minds now?

Is it wrong to be zealously against some of Bush's policies?

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Here's the thing, SL

A couple of years ago, someone asked me if there were any Bush policies I supported, and I couldn't come up with any. After some searching, I kinda came up with a couple.

I saw a lot of Dean. And I read some of his book. Rather than merely make his case about Bush's policy, he uses hyperbole and vitriol where they aren't necessary. He's chanting.

My guess is that he is expiating his own guilt. "Worse than Nixon" is one of his talking points.

A rule of thumb is this...

If someone argues against Bush's policies, and makes arguments against the policies, that's good. That's what we are supposed to do.

On the other hand, if one assumes the evilest of motives, believes the wildest of theories, chants the stupidest of chants (it's all about oil, for example), and repeatedly chants personal attacks, the he is a religious antiBushite.
For these people, it wouldn't matter what Bush did, he would be evil.

Another general rule is to observe the willingness to believe any lie if it casts a negative light on Bush (They said Iraq was behind 9/11, for example). At this point, a deprogrammer may be necessary.

Now, let's pick a policy and criticize it. How about his immigration policy? So...

Is it wrong to be zealously against some of Bush's policies?

No. I'm not even saying that it is wrong to adopt the faith of religious antiBushism. It is what it is. It is the berlief that what Bush says is wrong and inspired by the lowest of motives, and that we can know that in advance.

The faithful are easily spotted by their absolute statements. And by their repetition of any talking point that comes along against Bush.

Side note: today I was listening to Prairie Home Companion, a Guy Noir episode. In the bit was a character who could only speak French because he had vowed not to speak English until George W. Bush left the White House. Funny bit. They got him to talk English by assuring him that Bush had left the White House to go to Crawford for the weekend.

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RE: You should take a look

They knew going in that standing would be the hardest thing to prove

Yet they pursued the case anyway. Interesting. It is frivilous lawsuits such as this that clog up the judicial system and keep people who REALLY need it from obtaining justice.

The bottom line, again, is that the judicial system has determined that they had no standing which means affirmatively that they failed to demonstrate that they have been harmed in any way.

Now I can probably dream up all sorts of reasons why I have been harmed by liberal laws and policies and we could discuss them at length but if, in the end, I fail to be able to demonstrate the substance behind them my faux claims would be worth about as much as these seem to have been.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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There's still EFF's class-action suit against AT&T

that is ongoing...

I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied.
Learn to swim.
Moms gonna fix it all soon.
Moms comin round to put it back the way it ought to be.

………… parent

Breaking News: Military Kills al-Queda Leader Twice!

"The U.S. command in Baghdad this week ballyhooed the killing of a key al Qaeda leader but later admitted that the military had declared him dead a year ago.

A military spokesman acknowledged the mistake after it was called to his attention by The Examiner. He said public affairs officers will be more careful in announcing significant kills."

We Killed Him This Year and Last Year Too

Turning the corner one too many times.

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Laughable article from Reason's blog

From Reason's blog :

In the name of "freedom", oh, this is so ironic, a MN rep has passed a bill that curtails a "freedom"...albeit a minor one. Why do we allow any pol to do these things?

from the press wires:

Minnesota has passed the strongest measure, a new law that goes into effect at year's end requiring every Old Glory sold in state stores to be domestically produced. Violations are a misdemeanor, punishable by up to a $1,000 fine and 90 days in jail.

"The biggest honor that you can give the flag is that it be made by American workers in the United States of America," said [Democratic Rep. Tom Rukavina]. "Nothing is more embarrassing to me than a plastic flag made in China. This replica of freedom we so respect should be made in this country."

Sure let's celebrate freedom! I'm speechless.

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That's an interesting case,

since we've just had a discussion on here about how devotion to one's country can be tested once the government starts infringing on the abilities of business to operate. We were talking about it in the abstract, but here's a concrete and extreme example of patriotism and good business brought into direct conflict. I'd like to hear what other people in that discussion think about this case.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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Political nonsense

Though I'd check the customs import and export tariff of the PRC and make sure Chinese crap coming into the US is taxed at the exact same level as the American goods going to China.

Sic semper tyrannis

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Have a good vacation, Ender.

"Whooooooooooohooooo it's Friday! Short week for me :)

Here's hoping you enjoy yourself to the fullest.

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thanks

though my little vacation is over - and now it's just a nice little weekend :) But still good. I think I am going to head home a little early.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Interesting interview

at the Onion's AV Club about the closing of Punk Planet magazine : it's relevant here because of discussions involving small business.

Talking about distribution is about as exciting as talking about weather-stripping, but the reality is, when Punk Planet started 13 years ago, there were 12 national distributors that dealt specifically and exclusively with the independent and small press—and today there are none.

The magazine's creator argues that the problem isn't a lack of interest in independent/small press productions, but that large distributors and retailers have made it impossible for independent/small press distributors to survive in the market. How does one deal with a market actively hostile to entrepreneurship?

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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I was going to respond

with maybe not making a magazine about a long dead genre for starters or perhaps cut the distributors out and publish online exclusivley.

But then I read the article from your link...

"AVC: Punk Planet was never a moneymaking operation. Could you explain its business model?

DS: As a business, Punk Planet was destined to fail from day one. [Laughs.] Our business plan was, “Let’s set our ad rates as low as possible, so that the smallest record labels can afford a good-size ad space, so that they can have a national outlet to let people know about their releases.”

Ouch!

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Well, in their specific case, yeah -

they weren't exactly designed to succeed. Still, I do find the total lack of independent distributors disturbing. There was a strong movement in the 90s towards indie publishing, which helped foster a lot of up-and-coming writers with unique perspectives. Most of them have probably moved to the internet now, but I'm a little disconcerted that they've been pushed out of the publication market entirely.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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Go pico

I do find the total lack of independent distributors disturbing.

Sounds like you've found an opening for a business you can believe in!

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Did you read my comment?

The issue isn't that independent distributors don't exist for lack of trying, but that the market is hostile to their development: they've all been either muscled off by large distributors and/or book retailers. There is no opening, since distributors are only the middleman between publishers/authors and bookstores.

But in a better market, I actually think it's a great idea, especially if you live in an area with a lot of motivated readers and writers.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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yes, read the comment

but you uourself identified a need, one that others besides you can see. Let's face it, many if not most vbusinesses start just where people say they cannot succede.

I have faith in your vision. Maybe you'll create a literary Starbucks. After all, putting coffee houses on every corner of any city in the world is a stupid idea that can't work as well.

(Note: the force behind Starbucks didn't spend his time blaming the bigs for things.)

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If I had the time or inclination

I'd look into this phenomenon and see why these distributors have vanished. He blames large book retailers but I wonder if the answer isn't elsewhere.

Is it a coincidence that many shoe string publications have opted for the web and eliminated the middle man here? He mentions 1994 as the starting year of his observation about having 12 distributors....just before the dawn of the web. He also admits his plan was never really that good to begin with. market changes quickly weed out poor ideas.

Just ideas.

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RE: Did you read my comment?

The issue isn't that independent distributors don't exist for lack of trying, but that the market is hostile to their development: they've all been either muscled off by large distributors and/or book retailers.

No, I didn't read your comment. My comment here pertains only to the portion quoted above.

Welcome to the free market, capitalism, and competition. There are barriers to entry into ANY well established markets. This should hardly be a revelation.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Oh Heavens to Betsy!!

A new Libertarian blog with some witty articles has a new one on the emerging danger of sex toys....yes sex toys...which he spotted over at Reason . Oh, thank God the folks in Mississippi saw fit to put an end to this epidemic

Apparently, they’ve cleaned up all of the thieves and murderers in Mississippi and they are now going after the real hardcore criminals....

According to popular thought in small town law enforcement circles, sex toys are a gateway drug to enhanced sexual gratification. The greatest fear is that if women learn how to become sexually satisfied, they’ll be running around have orgasms willy-nilly all over the place.

LOL. Do visit the Reason article link for the full story:

The three arrested face charges of posessing sex toys with the intent to resale.

LOL.

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But...

what about the children?

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LOL.

Good point. Bless their little hearts. Ban those toys from the Satan himself!

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Exactly.

Some people might need all the help they can get to make children... And to each his/her own. Whatever works dude.

Sic semper tyrannis

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Just watched Sicko

I am now convinced we need govt run Universal health Care just like Canada, England, France, Japan and many industrialized nations who have better health statistics than US.

I hope conservatives here too watch it so that they can tell me why I am wrong.

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I agree!

Even Fox News said it is excellent.

There will be much resistance from the free marketeers.

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Many companies are warming to it, hopefully

I hope SICKO can produce an effective grassroot clamor for universal health care.

It seems so fulfilling to be a doctor practicing in Canada, England,etc not having to have the headache of dealing with authorization, insurance companies, length of stay in hospitals, money issues, profit margin, malpractice insurances, etc. Instead being a doctor means to just take care of patients and practice medicine.

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You bet

I can see them now rationalizing why it's better under the current system where you (and you employer, both) first pay through the nose for the insurance and then get hit by an avalanche of bills that in a sane system would never see your mailbox. I say: f**k that s**t.

Sic semper tyrannis

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RE: Just watched Sicko

I am not going to look up the references for you but you should be able to google them easily enough. Both Canada and England have people buying private insurance outside the government run system due to long waiting lines for even critical care in some cases.

Canada tried to outlaw the practice but I believe that it is on the way to becoming a reality anyway. In the case of Canadians, those who don't want to wait often cross the border and purchase the services that they require in the US because the Canadian system leaves them waiting. People have died waiting in some cases, I believe.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Here are some links to get you started...

Google Searches:

http://news.google.com/news?as_q=private+health+insurance+canada&svnum=1...

News Articles:

http://canadaeast.com/ce2/docroot/article.php?articleID=17635&paper=journal

This article is a good overview of the situation in Canada.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=ff908703-f33c-4187...

Another general overview.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070613/romanow_hea...

Somewhat a mixed piece but there are healthcare portions of the discussion such as:

He called the current debate on public and private funding and delivery, prompted in part by a landmark 2005 Supreme Court decision, one of the biggest challenges currently facing the Canadian system.

He described the decision, which struck down Quebec's ban on private health insurance for private care and permitted patients to use private care when faced with unreasonable delays, as a "major and unfortunate intrusion" into the complex issue of health care.

The court ignored evidence that affirmed the effectiveness of the public health-care model and the perils of private systems, he said.

That decision has "re-energized" a small but powerful minority who are in favour of a private health-care system and resulted in similar lawsuits being launched in Alberta and Ontario, Romanow said.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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GoRight

You are tempting the inquisition here.

i think they are lighting the torches now.

Recant, recant, before it is too late.

Oh....

What about the children?

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From the overview

Dr. Day says the public has the mistaken impression that he is out to destroy the public health care system and adopt a U.S.-style system that has left millions of Americans without health coverage. "No doctor in Canada I know wants a U.S. system," Dr. Day said.

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RE: From the overview

Yes, I noticed that. But I didn't withhold the reference just because of that (i.e. I have the intellectual honesty required to post it anyways). The point is that the Canadian system, as well as the British one, both end up rationing care (i.e. implementing and enforcing queues) to stay within budget.

Whether this particular Dr. like the US system or not is not the point.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

(hopefully that's light enough a curse to pass by our filters - if not I'll edit?)

Basically, it seems like an imperfect system either way, with the choice between between one of two extremes:

1. a fully private system in which a chunk of the population cannot afford medical costs, or
2. a fully socialized system in which everyone gets the same coverage, and the system grinds to a halt because of overuse and bureaucracy.

Is it fair to say that most of us would prefer a mixed system? If so, what would that system look like?

Canada's isn't bad, by the way. The waits are atrocious, sure, but you'll notice that on all counts, Canadians are healthier, longer-living, and happier than Americans. Granted, I'm sure there are other factors involved (average income, quality of life, etc.) - but that itself should clue us in that many of our health problems are lifestyle issues, not access issues.

Eh, such a complicated topic, way too much for a comment. But you get my drift.

[update] I DO think it's enormously telling that one's preference for healthcare system (that is, either Canada's or the US's) might depend on one's yearly salary. The implication is that neither is "objectively" desirable, but serves different parts of the population.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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It seems like

sensible people would study all of the various health care structures, from Canada to Sweden...... decide which best fits the US and put it into practice.

I don't think the waits for every service are atrocious. And in any system there are complaints or freak instances. Oops the doc cut off the wrong leg.

I think the business folks would be relieved if they didn't have to carry the burden of health care, or the burden of sick employees without health care.
It seems like income might not be all that relative.

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did you ever consider that

people have studied these systems and see flaws that they don't want to inherit and instead have different ideas on how to fix what's wrong with our system?

This is first and foremost a yes or no question. feel free to elaborate on the yes/no repsonse if you wish.

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You really think so?

Do you really think that there have been serious efforts made to evaluate the different systems? That's an honest question.

I have not seen it, myself, and would like to. It seems with this topic, as with many others, knee-jerk reactions set in (from all sides) and very little real analysis gets done.

Our healthcare system is not what it should be. Ask anyone who's been involved with it; I personally don't need a movie to tell me that the system is less than ideal ;}

I've done a diary myself on a related topic (hehe) and I see two problems: first, the system itself and second, our conditioned response to illness and injury. I'd be glad to hear of any serious analysis on the first problem, something that semi-objectively evaluates the alternatives available to us.

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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Of course there's been

I've articles and papers on the matter from people who are for and against the idea. They seem to know a lot about the system. I would assume they are not guessing.

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So have I

but only bits and pieces, not anything comprehensive.

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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All the same,

I doubt health care experts or policy analysts who make a case for or against, say the French system, would do so without having a fairly good amount of knowledge on the subject.

My basic stance is that I basically see why health insurance and medical care are so much. It's actually not hard to see from a market perspective. I described it very briefly just a little below here in a post headed "MissL,".

Though it's brief, I think it's fairly accurate in giving a very basic explanation.

The way I see it, you go after components in that process to lower costs with deregulation of some parts or "reregulation"...some of kaligula's examples could be tried here...or you say "the hell with it" and try to make a government universal health care system of some kind.

The problem left unsettled in the latter approach is that the process I described isn't necessarily (and probably NOT) affected. And that's not really good.

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I had a post on Freedom Democrats

a few months ago that addressed this issue.

Freedom Democrats

Scroll down a bit until you see "3rd Party Payment System + Bureaucracy == High Costs"

I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied.
Learn to swim.
Moms gonna fix it all soon.
Moms comin round to put it back the way it ought to be.

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Posting some here

From your link

If you want a efficient health care system, yet want the government to provide some degree of security or subsidy, it's not that difficult. Restore the voluntary exchange sytem for medical care by ending any tax exemption for employer-provided medical care. In other words, get the insurance companies out of the business of paying for routine medical care. Then, the government could, say, provide every family in the United States with catastrophic health insurance. For the low-income, you could issue medical stamps (as we do with food) to cover the costs of routine medical care.

In summary, have the government involved only in catastrophic health insurance; restore the voluntary exchange marketplace for routine care; have the government subsidize routine medical care for the low-income like they do for food.

It is the catastrophic care segment that is the largest problem, IMHO. I think I agree with your general approach as a good starting point. And it has the added benefit of being incremental and not an immediate wholesale overhaul of the system.

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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This is a variation of Milton Friedman's Recommendations...

as it turns out...Logan on FD said it reminded him of Friedman's proposals and sure enough, when i researched it, they were pretty close. The major difference is that Friedman wanted catastrophic insurance as a mandate that you would have to purchase privately(to be subsidized, however, for low-income), whereas, mine would be provided by the government to all. And whereas he still saw a role for private insurance, I think the concept of health insurance for routine or preventative care makes no sense at all. If you replaced a 3rd party mediated marketplace with a purer voluntary exchange marketplace, costs would go down making these services affordable. For lower income, I would rather have the concept of substitute cash(medical stamps) than subsidizing these services with more insurance.

But this whole thing would be predicated completely upon scrapping our entire system in it's entirety: i.e, medicare and medicaid, and ending any tax advantages for employer provided health insurance.

Another aspect that differs is that friedman saw a role for medical savings accounts. However, I'm for scrapping the income tax and the tax code completely, so the concept of medical savings accounts would be moot in my preferred system.

I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied.
Learn to swim.
Moms gonna fix it all soon.
Moms comin round to put it back the way it ought to be.

………… parent

One thing often left out

i that our medical system also produces medical breakthroughs. Do a little search on the number of drugs discovered and brought to market in Canada against here.

Turns out that America has the unhappy task of feeding the entire world health system. That cost is passed on to Americans disproporionately. Other governments simply set a price for drugs. This leaves American companies the option of withholding thise drugs from those markets where they can't get even the price of making and delivering the drugs, or providing them and hiking the price to Americans.

Almost nobody who talks about a socialized medical system and points to other countries takes this into account.

A medical system is more than just delivery of care; it is also research and development of that care.

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MadScientist, just how representative are your views

within the Communist Party. To me, you sound more libertarian than communist...

I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied.
Learn to swim.
Moms gonna fix it all soon.
Moms comin round to put it back the way it ought to be.

………… parent

LOL.

I asked him the same question once and linked me to a long response he had given someone else who asked the same question.

I don't know where it is anymore. I think he said that those were simply the default positions when he signed up and didn't change them. I think he also said he claims no ideological leaning.

But I'll let him answer...

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It's a test

You passed.

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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The long response

This is close to what i wrote.

1)When pressed, i like to say that I belong to the "Church of Libertarian Trotskyism, Reformed." I do this for sentimental reasons, having been at one time a member of the Fourth International. (I still visit their site regularly. At one time I could write that material in my sleep.) That is actually the only political organization I have ever been a member of, unless you count some Vietnam era anti-war groups, or my short stint with a Mao-ist group as sort of a soldier-on-loan.

But the fact is, I don't believe in political ideologies, discovering as I have that they are simply mind-closing systems of thought with many of the aspects of fundamentalist religions (they have a set of dogmas, a consequent doctrine, a loose, usually, except for Marxists, set of biblical canons, which may or may not be bound and printed. People of such religions tend to gather together to chant the teachings, which helps to strengthen the faith, and to ward of heretical thoughts. People of the faith are on the lookout for heretical thought and heretics, and often spend much of their time identifying these evils and evil people, and demeaning their very existence. The religion spends an inordinate amount of time with issues of purity of thought, ands can be given to the development of sects with divisions on key dogmatic issues (must a liberal be a pacifist?). Rites often develop, but these are not so important in secular religions. Also, priests and even bishops arise to keep track of the flock, to encourage collective action, and to promote the faith.

So:

2) I think that politics should be about solving practical problems with practical solutions. I think ideology gets in the way. "What will work best" is a more important question for politics than "what is the liberal answer" or "what is the conservative approach." We all have opinions on the role of government, and I don't seek to minimize them, but they belong on a continuum of rational people who should be encourage to seek commonalities, not their differences.

I try to look at things free of ideology, and I find the ascription of evil to those who disagree to be despicable and intolerable. (Examples: Calling someone that disagrees with your view on Iraq a "traitor" or a "warmongering killer.")

I believe we must treat political conflicts as things about with rational people can and do disagree, and nothing more. We should seek always to do as Shakespeare famously advises:

“Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.”

for then we will not lose sight of those who disagree with us as human beings, with authentic feelings, notions, and hopes and fears of their own.

Thus, I find it extremely frustrating when speaking to those who have only rip and read talking points from their ideology to offer, rather than timely suggestions for how we should proceed. I think we spend to much time seeking political advantage by examining the past, and the country suffers for it. I am saddened when I can reliably predict what someone will say on a new issue by their ideology.

Political ideology brings the will to stupidity to politics just as religion does, and for the same reasons. For every anti-intellectual believer who refuses to accept the scientific evidence on the age of the earth, there are anti-intellectual believers who refuse to accept the science on GMO food.

It is difficult here, but it is my policy to read essays and comments without looking to see who wrote them, to better give them a fair reading.

3) (bonus) That's what i believe at this time. It can and has changed continually over the years. But i will never again, so far as i can see, bend my knee to a religion or political ideology. I believe in free thinking. I believe in the idea of America. I believe that we in America prosper by tolerating horse trading.

I am not surprised that there is politics in politics, and have come to see it as necessary. So, "that's political" is no damnation to me.

(My campaign manager says I should not say more.)

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That's quite a switch

going from Trotsky to a rejection of ideology itself...

Going from the socialism of the 4th International to what could pass for a pretty good semblence of libertarian views

I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied.
Learn to swim.
Moms gonna fix it all soon.
Moms comin round to put it back the way it ought to be.

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Not so big a switch

according to the "horseshoe" theory of political spectrum.

The theory is (and I will track down a good write up) that the political spectrum is not so much like a line extending to infinity from right to left, but a horseshoe, so that the ends are closer to each other than to the fat middle.

I experienced this back in the late 60s when I realized that the libertarian end of the conservatives talked more like me than the "liberal establishment" that was running the place. We were both against the draft, for instance, and both in favor of a morally based conscientious objector status, while for the liberals running the place, any CO had to come from "long-standing" religious conviction. Hubert Humphrey, for instance, was asked about this and said that giving individuals the ability to object to the war on a moral basis and so opt out of military service would be to give them "the power of a god." I kid you not.

The Trotskyites were less enthralled with following Marxist dogma than the Stalinists, which is part of the reason that Trotsky got that big headache. The notion was "perpetual revolution" within a participatory democracy. Within the American wing, there was much more emphasis on individual freedom. Since for a Trotskyite there is no final state brought about by the great revolution, and each revolution or even democratic change brinbgs in a government subject to the ongoing perpetual revolution, you can see how threatening this is to any government, even those pretending to be the true heirs of Marx.

Once I weaned myself out of seeing everything from the point of view of its value to the revolution, and ztarted looking for the truth instead, I fell from the Marxist tree like an overripe fruit.

Importqntly, I realized that it wasn't Marxism or Trotskyism itself that made the truth secondary, but ideology itself. Adherence to an -ism requires that we see everything according to its value to the -ism, the the advancement of our cause. When the truth is useful, it is used. When it is not, it is ignored. When a lie is useful, it is also used.

I prefer to be free of ideology.

On another board, a lady who is decidedly and honestly ideological stated this: "I can relate better to those on the right wing than I can to moderates. At least those on the right wing have an ideology. I can at least admire them for that. Those in the middle believe in nothing."

One often hears the same thing from the religious about their religious rivals.

So being without an ideology opens one to abuse from all sides.

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Yes the rich don't need medicare

and of course they don't have to use it.

But like it or not your prices are higher because one way or another you pay for the health insurance of those without, either through higher insurance premiums, more taxes, or exposure to infectious diseases that are left untreated.

I suppose we don't need the govt to bury those who die with no money for their burial either, but what would we do with all the bodies? Just step over them in the streets?

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I'd put a voluntary tax check off for State Income Tax

where you can contribute $5 for an incinerator in your town.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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and for those who don't check the box

Will just throw the bodies in their front yard, and they can bury em in the back!

Everybody does their part.

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Nah. Let the free market take care of it

As bodies accumulate, someone will start a business to collect and incinerate bodies that are causing people health problems or are a nuisance to businesses. Those bodies that are not causing more disease or making people go elsewhere, will be left to rot.

Technically, the only people who will be harmed are those that are too poor to afford the service, who, as they don't have any health insurance are really probably supplying most of the bodies anyways. People who care about their family will have corpse removal insurance to cover the problem. Those with the foresight to get such corpse removal insurance shouldn't be punished with higher prices to cover those that don't!

Eventually someone will stop incinerating and start recycling and Soylent Green will be born

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Gotta love the free market of ideas!

Are you an entrepreneur? If not, you should be!

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Long lines happen here in US too.

Lines happens here too. Specially waiting for authorization from your insurance on consultants, tests which may even be a denial.

Or try getting an appointment--they schedule you months from now. Or go to the Emergency room or walk in clinic.

So I think reports of long lines in Canada, Britain are overblown.

Watch SICKO -- it will change your mind.

You will see the health care in other countries -- so purely about quality patient care -- with no profit or money involve.

The GP in England they interviewed makes $200,000. A entry level GP primary care here makes only half of that.

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RE: Long lines happen here in US too.

Lines happens here too. Specially waiting for authorization from your insurance on consultants, tests which may even be a denial.

I, personally, have not experienced any such phenomenon. When I have needed care it has always been available on a reasonable schedule, especially emergency services.

I am also not aware of anyone who has experienced this either, but perhaps my friends are just lucky?

The fact that Canadians choose to cross the border and pay out of their pockets to get timely care speaks for itself.

Watch SICKO -- it will change your mind.

I have no need to actually WATCH a movie produced by Michael Moore to know what I will find. 90% will be outright lies, and the rest will be half truths designed to smear the United States. Personally, I choose NOT to contribute to Michael Moore.

You will see the health care in other countries -- so purely about quality patient care -- with no profit or money involve.

What I will see is highly editted and completely deceiving propaganda designed to smear the United States. In other words, by the prevailing definition of the word amongst --> MOST <-- liberals on this site, a pack of lies, but more importantly even my MY definition of the word it will be a pack of lies.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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GoRight, it happens all the time

My best friend was hospitalized for a while because his doctor was forced to wait for authorization to get him the expensive antibiotics for MRSA. He almost lost his arm because of the delay and he not pushed back repeatedly and very hard (with some support from someone from out of country who knows it is supposed to be doctors making those decisions) he likely would have.

The fact that Canadians choose to cross the border and pay out of their pockets to get timely care speaks for itself.

Anecdotal evidence is inherently untrustworthy as the outliers float to the top. There are also lots of folks flying to India for their heart surgeries because it is so much less expensive. Is that evidence that American medicine is inferior to India's?

Give me stats.

What I will see is highly editted and completely deceiving propaganda designed to smear the United States.

Why not go with an expert? Do you know anyone with experience with healthcare in multiple countries?

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RE: GoRight, it happens all the time

This looks like a pretty good source for Canadian healthcare wait times .

My best friend was hospitalized for a while because his doctor was forced to wait for authorization to get him the expensive antibiotics for MRSA. He almost lost his arm because of the delay and he not pushed back repeatedly and very hard (with some support from someone from out of country who knows it is supposed to be doctors making those decisions) he likely would have.

To which I will respond:

Anecdotal evidence is inherently untrustworthy as the outliers float to the top.

So, you don't want to consider my anecdotal evidence, which is fine, but then don't try to cite you own.

Why not go with an expert? Do you know anyone with experience with healthcare in multiple countries?

OK, I have provided statistics on a wide range of services (above) which come directly from the Canadian Healthcare providers themselves. Is that expert enough?

The closest thing to government supplied healthcare that we already have in the US is the Veterans Administration healthcare. For a perspective on how well that government system is working out see this page on the house oversight committee . Many, many examples of people waiting over 30 days for appointments. I will wholeheartedly agree with you, no doubt, that this is an attrocity ... but it is one that I personally do not wish to inflict on the entire country as --> MOST <-- liberals seem to want to do.

In terms of a US comparison, here is the first article I found which does a direct comparison of waiting times for the same procedures:

Waiting times for knee-replacement surgery in the United States and Ontario.

I have only read the abstract which is reproduced here:

Department of Health Administration and Institute for Policy Analysis, University of Toronto, Canada.

BACKGROUND. Canada, which has universal single-payer health insurance, is often criticized for waiting times for surgery that are longer than those in the United States. We compared waiting times for orthopedic consultations and knee-replacement surgery and patients' acceptance of them in the United States and in the province of Ontario, Canada. METHODS. A stratified random sample of 1486 Medicare recipients (629 from the U.S. national sample, 428 from Indiana, and 429 from western Pennsylvania) and 516 people from Ontario who had been hospitalized for knee replacement between 1985 and 1989 were surveyed by mail in 1992. Patients were asked how long they had waited to see an orthopedic surgeon and to have surgery, the acceptability of these waiting times, and their overall satisfaction with surgery. RESULTS. About 80 percent of the questionnaires were returned, but not all the respondents answered all the questions. The rate of response to specific questions was about 60 to 65 percent in both countries. The median waiting time for an initial orthopedic consultation was two weeks in the United States and four weeks in Ontario. The median waiting time for knee replacement after the operation had been planned was three weeks in the United States and eight weeks in Canada. In the United States, 95 percent of patients in the national sample considered their waiting time for surgery acceptable, as compared with 85.1 percent in Ontario. Overall satisfaction with surgery ("very or somewhat satisfied") was 85.3 percent for all U.S. respondents and 83.5 percent for Canadian respondents. CONCLUSIONS. Waiting times for initial orthopedic consultation and for knee-replacement surgery were longer in Ontario than in the United States, but overall satisfaction with surgery was similar.

Bottom line: wait times were more that twice as long in Canada in some cases, but the over-all quality of the precedures once they had been performed was similar.

I am not going to waste more time trying to do your research. If you feel that waiting times between the US and Canada are similar then provide some evidence to back that up. As you said, give me the stats.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Yup.

"I hope conservatives here too watch it so that they can tell me why I am wrong."

I, too, just saw the film "SiCKO", and thought it was a good, well-thought-out film. The above-mentioned quote from your post says it all in a nutshell, jasmine. If FOX NEWS thought SiCKO was a good film, there's clearly something to be said for that.

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It's the Middlemen

The insurance companies..... that are killing us.

They should just have insurance agents wear the Dr.'s uniform since they tell Dr's what they will and will not cover as far as procedures.

Insurances companies love the testing. Let's test for this and that. Lots of money to be made there.

It took my dad six months of grizzly insurance covered tests to find out he had a bleeding ulcer in his stomach. Why cause that is what the insurance companies wanted.

The more people you talk to, it seems everyone has a story.

I would like to se a resurgance of the good old fashioned Dr.

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MissL,

You have to consider the whole picture. You are ignoring a lot of underlying conditions.

First of all, government mandates coverage for many things. Insurance companies are forced to cover a lot of these things. The more they cover, the more cost is involved. So, they have an incentive to avoid covering a lot of services that are not mandated. I'm not saying I like it but it's the truth and I can put myself in their shoes and see their point of view.

Insurances companies love the testing. Let's test for this and that. Lots of money to be made there.

Now keeping in mind what I just said, they are forced by mandates to cover all these tests. The doctors are the ones making the money off the tests. Insurance companies are PAYING FOR THEM.

But this brings us to another point. Since these tests are all covered by insurance, people have little incentive to reconsider whether certain tests are needed or just superfluous. Now, add in the risks of the doctor of being sued. He's not going to tell a patient a test isn't necessary if not prescribing the test could be used in a lawsuit case against him. He has a double incentive to prescribe tests to make money AND to cover his butt from a lawsuit that could find him guilty of malpractice for NOT doing a test that was available...regardless of whether or not it actually had anything to do with it. He'll need a lawyer and it will drain him of time and money even if he wins. He's erring on the side of caution and making money at the same time. Let's not forget how this all makes malpractice very expensive even for good doctors. It also deters doctors from getting into certain areas because lawsuit risks. This shrinks supply for certain services and further raises costs.

As a result of all this, these tests and procedures are not price sensitive the way other services and products are. Doctors will get as much as they can for them to counter their malpractice insurance costs and simply because they can since demand is so high and not really affected by consumer discrimination the way most products are.

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Just not gonna go there

with you.

Except to say I know several Doctors that have quit the field because they are sick to death of insurance companies telling them how to practice medicine.

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OK....

It's a shame.

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Bud

sorry if I was short. I should have said not now.

This is a huge long topic and you know I strongly disagree with much of your approach to things. (See Time Warner:+)

Believe it or not, I am actually working outside and come to get out of the heat.

So another time.

Again sorry for the short tone.

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regardless of my approach

your response implies that my post was so factually incorrect and off the wall that you simply cannot be bothered to refute each part one by one.*

What I gave is a fairly accurate nut and bolts explanatory elaboration behind your quick and narrow description of this process.

There are multiple things happening and reacting at the same time to bring about these realities you quickly dismiss with a jab at insurance companies.*

This does not mean I'm on their side.

* main points in bold

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LOL

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tsk.

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The Divine MissL

So you are saying that doctors will be overjoyed when the government tells them how to practice medicine?

I happen to know from experience that they aren't. "Damned Medicare denied the treatment" is a common complaint from nursing home doctors.

See, the thing is, Doctors are like human beings. They'd like to be completely free to do whatever they want, with no one telling them what to do.

And rather than taking the Hippocratic Oath themselves, requiring them to provide treatment to anyone without regard to ability to pay, they want the taxpayer to take the Hippocratic Oath, to pay the Doctors.

Such a deal!

btw, in the area of the hill country where i grew up, there now NO ob-gyn coverage. And it has nothing to do with insurance companies telling the doctors how to practice medicine.

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Thank you for recognizing

my Divinity!

That is the most relevant thing you have said in weeks! ;)

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You must be divine....

You create your own reality...(ka-thunk)

[I can never resist a straight line.]

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RE: The Divine MissL

See, the thing is, Doctors are like human beings.

ROFL. Now THAT'S funny. :)

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Well, GoRight

I'm glad someone sees the humour some of the time.

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