Thursday Open Thread

Success on 8 of 18 goals; Bush news conference set for 10:30 a.m. ET - We'll see what he says.

I went to a dkos NYC meetup last night and met some nice people. It was good to see the people I've read and respected. Some of the people I met were LarryinNYC, clammyc, psifighter, bowerie boy, mbnyc, mad cow, casperr, DemocraticLuntz, Jay Elias, Jeffrey Feldman, and more whose nicks might be escaping me now.

Anyways, good times. This is an Open Thread.

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Holy Moly

Please fill in more details....... pretty please. (When you have time.)

So were they all carrying pitchforks? Those are some big name kossacks. Is it true what they say about liberals? I have heard they are nice people!

Good for you Ender.

It is the economy, stupid.

…………

well not many details

I had some ideas on what some people might look like and some were exactly that while others were not at all. It's not like I interacted with many of them before though.

I think LarryinNYC looked the closest to what I imagined.

I just drank some beers and listened a lot. :)

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

and......

.........what did you hear!

Did anyone talk to you. Did you out yourself as EnderRS, and did anyone ask for your autograph?

This reminds me of pico's musings of the pictures we paint in our minds about the typists we read.

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

geez

yeah I talked to people. And I had a nametag with my nick on it, just like all the other people there :)

Autograph... lol!

Most of the conversations were on generic political and some personal topics. Nothing groundbreaking I am afraid.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

Just caught you in a pic over there...

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/7/12/131159/358

Are khaki's the "in" thing in NYC? : )

Síocháin!

"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

Thomas Jefferson

………… parent

heh

That's all I wear to work. Not sure about others but it seems fairly common :)

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

Hey Ender, had a discussion that would have depressed you

Since this is an open thread, and I know you are interested, I spoke to a researcher in nanotechnology, specifically medical nanotech. Apparently they are a long way from anything useful in the field (beyond possibly some dosage controls)

So you may not get those mini-robots fixing you up for a very long time

………… parent

I am still young

so I am hopeful. And like I said, I am all for suspended animation while they figure stuff out.

The do need to move faster on it though.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

Was just a bit...

intrigued by the fact that everyone in that pic was wearing them. It is summer in NY though. I remember hot it gets in that town.

Miss NYC pretty bad.

Glad you seem to have had a good time though!

Síocháin!

"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

Thomas Jefferson

………… parent

it is pretty hot

but it was pouring that night and so not too bad which was fortunate as I hate sweating.

I enjoy coming to NYC which is not as often now that my company moved to Jersey.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

You and me both...

hate feeling all sticky. eeeee

Just out of curiosity, what do you do for a living?

I'm presently working for HP on IA64 blade servers developing thier Windows Server 2008 solution onsite at MS. Ironic really, since I hate code. : )

Síocháin!

"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

Thomas Jefferson

………… parent

I manage some programmers

in a medium size company. Nothing major :) I do some programming myself.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

I had a feeling...

you were in the biz. : ) And a PM too! But major or not, if you're enjoying it, it's great thing.

Funny thing, while I'm officially a tester, I'm spending so much time managing our test lab and herding devs on bugs, that I might as well be a PM these days.

But if you're ever looking for work and inclined to relocate out here to Seattle, shoot me a resume! Can always use a good PM that can code too!

Síocháin!

"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

Thomas Jefferson

………… parent

heh thanks

how's the rain over there? :)

I can't say I enjoy programming all that much. Trying to eventually move off into other other areas. But overall I like my job.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

My pleasure!

as for the rain, after the heat out here this week, I'd KILL for a good rain!

Imagine if you will... 95+ heat, something like 30-40% humidity, a bus packed to ass-grabbing extremes, and an hour in stop and go traffic.

I was NOT thrilled.

And good luck in your pursuit of career modification too!

Síocháin!

"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

Thomas Jefferson

………… parent

Mission Almost Accomplished?

Can we leave now?

qui tacet consentire

…………

mission almost accomplished :)

You could say that. You are like a kid who says "are we there yet"! No, lil quaoar, we have a little bit more to go :)

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

A little bit more to go?

You're like the deadbeat tenant who keeps telling the landlord that if he is just patient for another month he'll have that back rent.

qui tacet consentire

………… parent

RE: A little bit more to go?

I thought that the Democrats were in charge of the purse strings these days. Are your comparing them to dead beat tenants? :)

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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The goal of terrorism is terror

From the Agitator :

In this sense, the very people who are supposed to be protecting us from terrorists are playing right into the terrorists' hands. Despite the absence of any specific information, and despite the fact that his saying as much would do little if anything to actually thwart a pending attack, Chertoff still feels he has to go public with his "gut feeling" that something awful might happen this summer. And so the newspapers and Drudge and the blogs run with it. And now we get to go about our summer business with the foreboding cloud of a possible terror attack looming on the horizon.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

…………

Because

I am highly suspicious of the motives of folks like Chertoff/Cheney/Bush/ Rove..... was this a warning or a foregone conclusion.

Meanwhile the Dept of Justice is still demoralized.

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

I think Balko has it right

It's a vague CYA warning that doesn't do anything useful. Hopefully they are carrying out more effective measures behind the scenes.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Well there is cause for concern

when anyone can buy materials to build a dirty bomb.

Undercover Congressional investigators set up a bogus company and obtained a license from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission in March that would have allowed them to buy the radioactive materials needed for a so-called dirty bomb.

Go Nuclear Today

The undercover operation involved an application from a fake construction company, supposedly based in West Virginia, that the investigators had incorporated even though it had no offices, Internet site or employees. Its only asset was a postal box.

Doesn't this clearly make the case for the need for regulation? I mean good grief, nobody checked anything, but someone had a profit motive. Ack! This is ridiculous.

Nuclear Regulatory Commission officials did not visit the company or try to interview its executives in person. Instead, within 28 days, they mailed the license to the West Virginia postal box, the report says.

While a dirty bomb might not cause much damage, if even one person was killed, the press would go completely nuts.

Couple this with the fact that the Bush administration has drastically cut funds that secure the clean up of the Russian cache of nuclear material...... and you can't help but wonder what is going on here!

I guess a good investment these days is Uranium Stocks

From time now to the end of 2007 we could see an increase from $91 to $150/lb, followed by a further increase from $150 to $200/lb in 2008, with the possibility of $500/lb later on. Our prediction of $200/lb has been on the table for some time now (Since Uranium was $64) and we are sticking with it.

Uranium has gone from $7 a pound to over $64 without a single pullback.

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

Interestingly...

According to this Chicago Tribune article , one of the comments Chertoff made was how he had hoped the immigration bill would have passed, noting specifically that granting a path to citizenship to illegal immigrants would cut away "the tall grass" hiding criminal elements among the undocumented workers.

Perhaps an attempt to get Bush's pet project jumpstarted again? Who knows?

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Nice one Brendan

Good libertarian source! ;} The agitator is on my blogroll.

If only the Dem leadership could cut to the chase as easily.

………… parent

No freaking kidding...

sometimes politics really pisses me off. :)

Síocháin!

"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

Thomas Jefferson

………… parent

also

isn't it interesting that yesterday MSM was talking about this report saying that the Iraqi govt failed on all counts? Why the lies? MSM seems to be heavily invested in trying to bring Bush down.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

…………

I think your objective isn't bush43's objective.

That's just me thinkin' though.

It appears that what you want Ender is an Iraq that is part of the modern western world. One that abides by what the dominant world powers do & say. One where they don't tolerate folks who espouse some of the more extreme islamic &/or anti-semetic views.

I think what the bush43 administration really wants is a weak state that due to it's weakness allows western (ie-primarily american) powers to oversee and control it's resources (oil). I think the weakness plays into the domino theory that the NPAC folks love so much. I think they also fear that if Iraq became too stable, Iraq would start making decisions and more importantly actions that are in IT'S best interest rather than America's best interest.

Bushco wants control. Bushco wants the power. While Iraq is weak and feeble, they can dictate. A stable and strong Iraq would never allow that. That's why Iraq is still a mess because the idiots in the bush43 administration don't care about the Iraqi people, they don't care about the american people, they only care about their monied buddies and they're doing everything they can to further them and let the rest of the world be damned.

Now that may sound jaded, but all actions bush43 has taken are consistent with that notion. Your hopes are much more idealistic, theirs are only purient.

………… parent

RE: That's just me thinkin' though.

Bush43 is gonna be gone in a year and a half so this little theory is kinda bogus.

That's just me thinkin' though.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Maybe if you used logic

your thinkin' would have any merit at all.

Your stating that bush has a year and a half left has nothing to do with and in no way is related to anything I said.

Buddy. I'm not your enemy. Maybe if you did more than knee jerk a decent conversation could be had.

I postulated bush has shown contempt for everyone except his monied friends. You respond with the time he has left in office and suggest that because of that my point has no merit.

Did you graduate from Liberty University or some similar school?

………… parent

RE: Maybe if you used logic

Bushco wants control. Bushco wants the power.

Nope, my comment didn't have anything to do with that. I certainly can see the "logic" in your conclusion.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Another reason I like Obama

but other Democrats may not, courtesy of Redstate : he's willing to consider working with teachers to determine a reasonable form of merit pay.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

…………

Me too!

People forget that to 'get er done' you HAVE to be able to appeal to the other side and be open minded to all solutions.

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

When is a success not a success.

look here:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19727642/

it details which criteria were supposedly success.

let's take a gander, huh?

Satisfactory
— Forming a Constitutional Review Committee and then completing the constitutional review.
— Enacting and implementing legislation on procedures to form semiautonomous regions.
— Establishing supporting political, media, economic, and services committees in support of the Baghdad Security Plan.
—Reducing the level of sectarian violence in Iraq.
— Providing three trained and ready Iraqi brigades to support Baghdad operations.
— Ensuring that the Baghdad security plan will not provide a safe haven for outlaws, regardless of sectarian or political affiliation, as Bush says Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki has pledged to do.
— Establishing all of the planned joint security stations in neighborhoods across Baghdad.
— Ensuring that the rights of minority political parties in the Iraqi legislature are protected.
— Allocating and spending $10 billion in Iraqi revenues for reconstruction projects, including delivery of essential services, on an equitable basis.

\

let's look at the very first one:

— Forming a Constitutional Review Committee and then completing the constitutional review.

so they succeeded, huh?

Constitutional review
Requirement:
Form a Constitutional Review Committee and then complete the constitutional review. Political blocks need to reach agreement on Presidential powers, the powers of the regions vs. the central government, and the status of Kirkuk.

Completion: Satisfactory
Constitutional Review Committee has been formed. "Significant progress has been made on many substantive issues and technical details involved in the constitutional review process," the report states.

I see. So they had to form a committee and complete a review, they only formed the committee. So why is this a success?

Oh because the administration needs a life preserver.

The semi autonomous region law is passed but not implemented (which is admittedly closer to a real success).
The support committees were formed but then turned out useless.
Sectarian violence reduced? Don't make me laugh.

The report notes “the Government of Iraq -- with substantial Coalition assistance -- has made satisfactory progress toward reducing sectarian violence... Furthermore, though sectarian violence has been reduced, it is not yet reduced to a level the Coalition judges acceptable."

3 Iraqi brigades?

The report finds that “while manning levels for the deployed Iraqi units continue to be of concern, the Iraqi Government has provided the equivalent of three additional brigades to Baghdad and has made provisions to sustain this level of effort and to address manning issues.”

Safe haven? They might have gotten that one.

Joint security stations? Accomplished but we've already seen they are vulnerable to insurgent attacks. A pyrrhic success at best.

Equal rights? Sure.

$10 billion in reconstruction?

The report finds that “the Iraqi Government is making satisfactory progress in allocating funds to ministries and provinces, but even if the full $10 billion capital budget is allocated, spending units will not be able to spend all these funds by the end of 2007.”

So in other words of the nine "successes" two are blatantly false ($10 billion for reconstruction and constitutional review), two only passed by moving the goal posts (3 brigades, lowered sectarian violence), two were counter productive (support commitees, joint security stations, and three might genuinely have succeeded (regional law, no safe haven, and equal rights for minority parties).

Worst. Report card. Ever.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

…………

Great analysis! n/t

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Cindy Sheehan was been 'warned'

that she is not to use dKos as a base of operations for her 'campaign' as a third party candidate to unseat Ms. Pelosi.

It is the economy, stupid.

…………

yeah I saw her silly diary

and the strange statement that she can't post anymore, even though she was free to post that.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

Strange indeed

She seems to have wandered a little too far off the beaten path.

I am cheered that dKos has taken a sensible stand. And also that I have seen some really good dairies posted there lately, especially the ones that get highlighted by the rescue rangers.

It is the economy, stupid.

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Yep, she has reached the end of her usefulness

to the Democrats. Time to toss her under the bus. Typical Democrat tactic.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

You're just a really unhappy person aren't you?

Folks are telling Cindy she can't use Dkos as a base for her political ends, that she's stepped over the line and you spew your bull***t.

Don't you have better things to do with your time? I certainly have better things than to read unhappy righties fight windmills.

………… parent

RE: You're just a really unhappy person aren't you?

Dkos is a partisan site dedicated to Democrat politics. They have posted for and supported Cindy for a very long time when it was politically expedient for them to do so.

Now Cindy announces that she wants to run for Congress as a Democrat and all of a sudden all of the glowing adulation and support gets summarily cut off.

Given this, how is my characterization of her being thrown under the bus either inaccurate or "bulls***"? Perhaps you just don't want to see the truth?

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

You've maxed out your limit for the day.

Not interested. Go somewhere else for your kicks.

………… parent

You wanted conversation ...

this is what is called conversation.

You (or the Kossacks) have said that Cindy has "crossed the line" and is not welcome to use dkos, correct?

As far as I can tell she basically wants to post on a Democrat Blog which purports to be focused on advancing Democrat politics for the purpose of mounting a campaign for a Democrat seat in Congress. What line has she supposedly crossed with that? Maybe I am just confused?

Help me to understand the logic behind this.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

ok you are a bit mistaken

She does not want to run as a Democrat, and in a Democratic primary against Pelosi. She actually wants to run in the General Election as an outside candidate against Pelosi which is against the stated mission of Dkos.

That is the major problem. There are also side issues of Sheehan sliming the Democratic Party in her announcement diary as the party of Slavery and the party that started all wars.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

Thanks.

I stand corrected which is what I was asking for.

She does not want to run as a Democrat, and in a Democratic primary against Pelosi. She actually wants to run in the General Election as an outside candidate against Pelosi which is against the stated mission of Dkos.

Given this then dkos has every right to not support her campaign. Thanks for the correction.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

no problem man

I've bashed Sheehan for a long time, and actually was trollrated on dkos a few days before the latest blowup for calling her vile here on SC. They looked SC up, saw what I said, and bashed me there :)

But then again it's understandable why we hate her. It's not as understandable why the Left would rally around such an unsavory character.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

Compassion

But then again it's understandable why we hate her. It's not as understandable why the Left would rally around such an unsavory character.

Some people feel compassion for a mother who lost a child in a war. Especially when the child died for no good reason and the war serves no good purpose.

I've never thought much of Mrs. Sheehan in terms of her ability to raise debate or provide impressive policy opinions, but I do have some modicum of regard for a woman who lost her son because bush got him killed.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

regard or respect is earned

by the actions of the person that regard or respect is accorded to and not by the actions of their relatives.

The only thing Mrs. Sheehan earned by the virtue of losing her son is pity. Her actions since then have earned my scorn and ridicule.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

Just realize...

...that taking that position invalidates any arguments on your part that the troops "deserve" our respect/regard.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

I don't see how that is true

when I see what our troops are doing as honorable. You are free to disagree, but I certainly view our troops' actions as good and therefore well worthy of respect.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

because...

...that estimation only applies for you. You can say "I respect the troop because *I* think what they do is honorable." What you can't say is "I think what the troops do is honorable so *you* have to respect them." Or at least you can't say that and have it be consistent with your previous statement.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

so?

No kidding. Respect is a subjective thing. Some actions are worthy of respect and some are not but it is not absolute. It depends on the views of the people according respect on whether they believe the actions in question are worthy of respect.

You and others on the Left are somehow claiming that the mere fact that Cindy Sheehan lost her son means that she is entitled to respect and regard and I disagree with that assessment because I believe only actions I find respectable are worthy of that.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

I didn't.

You and others on the Left are somehow claiming that the mere fact that Cindy Sheehan lost her son means that she is entitled to respect and regard

others might have but I didn;t argue that. I said *some* people feel compassion for her situation when the (probably rhetorical) question was asked as to why the left has anything to do with her. I didn't say that such a case should be universal.

Personally I agree with you in this case that respect is given as we see fit and nobody is simply owed it. But it is a common trope on the right that the troops automatically deserve respect due to their choice of vocation.

I was just giving you a friendly reminder that your argument (which again I agree with) undercuts that rationale. I'm always looking out for your best intersts. I'm just a sweetheart like that :)

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

lol

Alright then :)

So respect is given according to people's morality. Thus the Right can bash the left basically saying that respecting the troops is morally right and if you do not, then your morality sucks.

It's all subjective but a valid line of attack. :)

Addressing the first part - it's perfectly alright to feel compassion for someone's situation without automatically according them respect.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

What's so honorable about what we're doing in Iraq?

"when I see what our troops are doing as honorable. You are free to disagree, but I certainly view our troops' actions as good and therefore well worthy of respect."

There's nothing honorable or heroic about what Bush is asking our troops to do in Iraq--nothing honorable or heroic about getting our own soldiers maimed or killed, ormaiming/killing/sickening hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, all for no good reason.

I may not agree with everything Cindy Sheehan says, but I do feel sorry that she lost a son in an unnecessary war, and the fact that she grieved constructively and fueled the anti-war movement.

………… parent

Her exploitation of her son's death ...

when in his own words he was proud to have served and supported the cause is what earns her the disrespect.

We all have compassion for those whose lives were touched by her son's death and who choose to honor his sacrifice and choice, we have no compassion for those who choose to exploit that sacrifice and choice for political purposes as she has done, especially when that exploitation goes directly against what he, himself, believed.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Kinda like...

..The GOP did with David Brock.

“Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.” --- Albert Einstein

………… parent

Fred Thompson admits to lobbying for abortion rights group.

Yea, he admitted to doing it on Sean Hannity's show last night . It was reported earlier by the LA Times.

By Fred's reasoning, just because he accepted money and lobbied to liberalize abortion laws under bush41, doesn't mean he supports abortion or anything.

I guess lobbyists and lawyers are just high priced prostitutes then, huh?

…………

RE: Fred Thompson admits to lobbying for abortion rights group.

Correct. From the perspective that we all (for the most part) sell our services for a price, we are ALL prostitutes of one sort or another.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Huh?

There goes GoRight, redefining the language again.

From Webster:

Main Entry: 1pros·ti·tute
Pronunciation: 'präs-t&-"tüt, -"tyüt
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -tut·ed; -tut·ing
Etymology: Latin prostitutus, past participle of prostituere, from pro- before + statuere to station -- more at PRO-, STATUTE
1 : to offer indiscriminately for sexual intercourse especially for money
2 : to devote to corrupt or unworthy purposes : DEBASE

- pros·ti·tu·tor /-"tü-t&r, -"tyü-/ noun

Selling one's services for a price is not in any way shape or form "prostitution" unless A) our services are sexual in nature or B) our services are devoted to corrupt or unworthy purposes.

You can't just go redefining English every time it suits you.

By your definition of prostitution, every minister or priest is a "prostitute" since they get paid.

“Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.” --- Albert Einstein

………… parent

I'm not redefining anything ...

I am merely using the definition that kindness was using in this comment:

I guess lobbyists and lawyers are just high priced prostitutes then, huh?

wherein he was not relying on any definition requiring sexual intercourse or corruption. If you have a problem with THAT definition then I suggest that you direct your ire at the one who actually coined it!

I expect an apology for this gross mischaracterization of my comment! :)

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Actually...

kindness's comment *does* fit the second definition, when applied to Fred Thompson.

Fred Thompson believes that abortion is murder. Therefore, for Fred Thompson do lobby on behalf of abortion rights is him devoting his time for "unworthy or corrupt" purposes in his own mind.

He accepted payment for his services, despite his services being devoted to, what he would consider, corrupt purposes.

Therefore... Fred Thompson lobbying for abortion rights does fit the Webster's definition of prostitution.

...as does anyone getting paid to do something that they believe to be wrong.

The atheist who accepts a position as a Catholic priest is a prostitute.

The President who signs a bill that he feels is unconstitutional is a prostitute (i.e. Bush signing the McCain-Feingold law).

As far as kindness's definition.... lobbyist and lawyers who accept payment for services that they believe are corrupt or unworthy are prostitutes.

The lawyer who defends a client he knows to be guilty, is a prostitute.

...not that there's anything wrong with that... ;-)

“Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.” --- Albert Einstein

………… parent

Sorry, but you are wrong.

Fred Thomson's personal beliefs are irrelevant in this case.

The standard for "corruption" in the context of political lobbying is already set forth in the law. This is the moral standard by which he must be judged, otherwise we could be convicting people of almost anything if they ever made a contrary statement in the past or legitimately changed their mind on something.

By this standard Fred has done nothing wrong and similar logic likewise refutes all of your other examples as well.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Uh...no...

I didn't say that there was anything wrong with what Fred Thompson did...

...only that it fits the dictionary definition of "prostitution".

If one gets paid for performing a service that they themselves believe to be "unworthy or corrupt", they are prostituting themselves.

That's the very definition of prostitution.

Dissecting your attempt at deflection point by point:

The standard for "corruption" in the context of political lobbying is already set forth in the law.

The definition of prostitution says "unworthy or corrupt". If Fred considers the advancing of abortion rights to be unworthy, then he is prostituting himself when he gets paid to advance them.

This is the moral standard by which he must be judged, otherwise we could be convicting people of almost anything if they ever made a contrary statement in the past or legitimately changed their mind on something.

Only if they were paid to do something while personally believing it to be wrong at the time. Two points to note:

1) It must involve payment
2) It must be an action that the perpetrator considers "unworthy or corrupt".

Fred Thompson's advocacy of abortion rights as a lobbyist fits the Webster definition of prostitution to a "T".

You lost the argument, GoRight. Move on.

It is easy, GoRight. Just say the words.. "I stand corrected, I was wrong." You can do it. I know admitting that goes against every fiber of your being... but you'll feel better afterwards.

... and you'll gain a little respect too.

“Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.” --- Albert Einstein

………… parent

Umm, yes ...

If one gets paid for performing a service that they themselves believe to be "unworthy or corrupt", they are prostituting themselves.

I think you need to go back a read that definition again, I don't see the words "they themselves believe to be" anywhere in there, strictly speaking. It says nothing about which standard of "unworthy or corrupt" the activity is judged by. There are, after all, those who believe that his actions were both "worthy and upstanding" and considering the legal climate today one can only assume that society as a whole would agree or abortion would be illegal.

Here is a hypothetical to illustrate the fallacy (or at least the lack of inherent truth) of your argument. Let us suppose that Fred Thompson actually does object to abortion, but he also believes that it is wrong to push his views onto others. In the context of his lobbying efforts, therefore, these principles are in conflict. Being in conflict perhaps he weighs the latter to be more important than the former (NOT imposing one's personal beliefs on others is MORE important than stopping abortion). In that light, Thompson may very well have considered his lobbying actions to be quite worthy, thus refuting your objection.

Does he actually hold these beliefs? Who knows. Does this scenario illustrate the fallacy of your argument? Certainly. You cannot judge Fred Thompson's judgement of the worthiness of his lobbying efforts on a single dimension.

I don't accept your premise that Fred found his efforts to be "unworthy or corrupt". You have your personal speculations but no real proof of anything. Until you do your assertion is a strawman.

Fred Thompson's advocacy of abortion rights as a lobbyist fits the Webster definition of prostitution to a "T".

Except for the part where we don't actually know that Fred Thompson, over all, considers his actions to have been "unworthy or corrupt" by either his own or any other standard. In fact, the evidense suggests just the opposite since he actually DID lobby for abortion rights.

You lost the argument, GoRight. Move on.

Yes, and there is concensus on Anthropogenic Global Warming too, I hear.

It is easy, GoRight. Just say the words.. "I stand corrected, I was wrong." You can do it. I know admitting that goes against every fiber of your being... but you'll feel better afterwards.

... and you'll gain a little respect too.

I do admit when I am beaten. This is not one of those times. You should follow your own advice.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Concerning Thompson... these possibilities exist....

A) Fred Thompson has always been for abortion rights, and is lying now in order to gain favor with conservatives (hypocrisy)

B) Fred Thompson has always been against abortion rights, and accepted payment to advance the cause of abortion rights in direct conflict with his own personal beliefs (prostitution)

C) Fred Thompson was for abortion rights before he was against them. (flip-flopping)

Really, no other possibilities exist. He has stated his opposition to abortion recently. When he lobbied on behalf of abortion rights, he either agreed with it or he didn't.

ergo... he is either a hypocrit, a prostitute, or a flip-flopper.

I'll leave it as an exercise for everyone as to which label best fits. ;-)

“Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.” --- Albert Einstein

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Sorry, forgot one as I showed ...

D) He has any number of things that he cares about which influence his personal determination of the worthiness of his lobbying efforts beyond simply abortion rights, and the non-abortion rights issues were deemed by him to be more important.

Ergo, you ergo is incorrect.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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non-abortion rights issues?

He was an advocate for an abortion rights group.

By what twisted logic do you come up with "non-abortion rights issues" when advocating for an abortion rights group?

To do that which you do not believe in, and receive payment for it, is to be a prostitute.

To do that which you do believe in, and receive payment for it, is to not be a prostitute.

If the latter is true, then Fred Thompson has either changed his opinion on abortion, or is lying to conservatives about his opinion on abortion.

You can twist the logic until you make a pretzel even Snyders of Berlin would be proud of... but you cannot escape the truth.

Either Fred Thompson believed in the cause he lobbied for, or he didn't. There's no other possibility.

If he did believe in it, then he is either lying now or he has changed his opinion ("flip-flopped", in the GOP universe).

If he did not believe in it, then he accepted payment to advance a cause he was personally opposed to.

I don't need to know Fred Thompson's state of mind at the time... only that he had a state of mind about the subject.

To use your "nazi" metaphor... if one gave money or advocated on behalf of the Nazis, was one a Nazi-sympathizer?

If you answer anything other than yes, you are intellectually dishonest and no further discussion with you would be worthy of my time.

If one gives his time and or money on behalf of abortion rights, then one is an abortion rights supporter. To argue otherwise is nonsense.

“Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.” --- Albert Einstein

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RE: non-abortion rights issues?

To do that which you do not believe in, and receive payment for it, is to be a prostitute.

Stop changing your position. Your position has been from the start that to be a prostitute that he had to be doing something that he, himself, considered to be "unworthy or corrupt". So let's stick with that wording if you don't mind.

We can take this up again later below ...

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

One more thing

Fred Thomson's personal beliefs are irrelevant in this case.

Fred Thompson's personal beliefs are entirely relevant when considering the question:

"Did Fred Thompson prostitute himself when he lobbied on behalf of abortion rights?"

Notice... the question has nothing to do with the legality of what he did... it is completely legal.

To get paid to advance a cause one personally feels abhorence toward, is to prostitute onself.

In summation:

If you, GoRight, were to accept payment for passing out "Al Gore is right on the environment!" fliers, you would be prostituting yourself.

“Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.” --- Albert Einstein

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RE: One more thing

See my post above. For your argument to be valid one hurdle that you must pass (among several even using YOUR definitions) is to demonstrate that in Fred Thomson's mind he judged his actions to be "unworthy or corrupt". I submit that there is no possible way for you to do so since that judgement is depenent on more than the single criteria that you are relying on.

Come up with proof of Thompson's state of mind at the time he performed the lobbying services or you only have one of two legs to stand on by your own admission.

[ Note, I only shift to attacking YOUR definition of the term because it will be the shortest path to closing this discussion, NOT because I particularly accept it. ]

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

as above...

..I don't have to know his state of mind.

It was one of two places: He agreed with the cause of abortion rights, or he didn't.

He's a hypocrit if he believed in abortion rights and still does, because he is proclaiming to conservatives now that he is anti-abortion.

He's a prostitute if he didn't believe in abortion rights at the time, because he accepted payment to advance a cause he personally objected to.

He's a flip-flopper if he changed his position on abortion from pro-choice to pro-life. Based on the Rove-ian definition of flip-flopper. (If you reject this definition of flip-flopper, the GOP owes John Kerry an apology).