Weekend Open Thread
Busy week for me, glad it's Saturday.
MLB playoffs are underway. Yankees lost a wild one to Cleveland last night and are in an 0-2 hole. Boston won on a dramatic walk-off by Manny and they are up 2-0. Arizona and Colorado try to sweep their series today. I have to admit politics is taking a backseat to baseball for me for the immediate future.
What's going on?
Submitted by Brendan on Sat, 2007-10-06 11:36
Tags:

Comments :
Go Cleveland....
I am rooting for Cleveland and the Rockies.
The Rockies come back from last place is like a movie script.
And of course those corporatist Yankees needs to get spanked. :)
I'm only half stupid
Yes, the Rockies/Padres playoff game to determine
which team moved on was unbelievable.
I was pulling for the Cubbies but it doesn't look good for them.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Even if you aren't a Rockies fan
it's a great story. Especially the part where the goat (outfielder misses critical fly ball) turns into the hero by scoring the winning run in the 13th inning.
I'm only half stupid
Yeah, dark time for Philly fans
When Holladay (sp?) scored without touching home against SD after that streak they've been on, it just looks too ominous for CO.
Then there's McNabb across the lot at the Linc....
I see Garcia's having a nice year
Ha, yes, after our discussion earlier on McNabb
you'll be happy to hear he's killing my fantasy team (except against the Lions).
Garcia doesn't do too much but he doesn't make big mistakes either.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
See, Brendan
Bad karma.
busy weekend here
Working on some stuff. Hope you all are having fun :)
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Ecological Debt Day
I'm sure this will go over real well with some here. Today is Ecological Debt Day
, the day in the calendar year in which the population of earth has used up one year's worth of sustainable natural resources, according to The Global Footprint Network
. Everything we use for the rest of the year is "overshoot":
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Is this weird
GOP Grassroots
Call to report your involvement in grassroots activities to support President Bush.
If you click the link you get all the GOP radio stations that support President Bush, not the GOP, but President Bush.
I'm only half stupid
Murtha owes them an apology
While we are on the subject of smearing the troops, actually smearing them not lying about smearing them, Murtha did a fine job of carrying the Democrat water on that front a while back when he accused those marines of killing civilians in cold blood.
From RedState
:
Its one thing for political pundits to engage in this type of troop hating behavior, but it is quite another for elected Democrats to be doing it. Censure the bafoon for speaking out before the facts where in. This just demonstrates that Murtha assumes the worst about the troops.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4The military has a poor record
of investigating it's own.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Things must be looking up for the Republicans ...
if this has reached the priority list of issues for him to discuss: Flag lapel pins?
Sean Hannity basically called out Senator Ubama for deciding to not wear his Flag lapel pin at all, so now Kos is all bent out of shape because Hannity, who still wears his pin, didn't on a few recent occasions.
Yep, that's important political commentary. If this is on Kos' list of priority topics I'm starting to feel a lot better about the Republican's chances. On the other hand, Kos' record is so poor maybe I should be even MORE worried.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Flag lapel pins
Flag burning
Gay marriage
Haircuts
MoveOn.org
Yes, Republican issues this year are substantive and aimed at solving the real problems of hard-working Americans.
Y'all keep going and see what happens.
qui tacet consentire
Don't leave my favorite off the list--
Nancy Pelosi's airplane rides back to California!
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
It just keeps getting better ... :)
mcjoan just posted a piece, Hold the Presses!
, in which she blasts the MSM for even paying attention to the lapel pin issue when Kos had just posted on the very same topic the day before! They can't even get their own stories straight anymore, is it news or isn't it?
The quality of the posts on the dkos front page seems to be suffering lately.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4That only shows--
how independent and diverse the frontpagers are!
I come down on the side of McJoan on this one. Flag lapel pins = trivia.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Nah. I like my "explanation" better! :)
I agree it is trivial.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4This just in from Hillary's campaign on the lapel pin issue:
Senator Clinton said that she made her decision not to wear a flag lapel pin after she discovered that it actually burned into her flesh like holy water on a demon.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4I am calling you out here.
Please do not mispell Barack's name for the sake of an ugly implication.
It is not necessary and is beyond rude.
I'm only half stupid
I'm only doing it because your friends in the MSM
have started referring to "Osama" as "Usama" so as to protect the dear boy which I find amusing. Of the Democrat field I find Obama the least offensive but I'll settle for anyone but the Hildebeast.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Maybe they use the FBI's spelling
from the 10 most wanted list.
.
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/laden.htm
Also, doesn't a 9/11 report lists him as "Usama"?
Google, lists about as many hits for either spelling.
Sic semper tyrannis
All true.
But these things have been known for years now and they have consistently continued referring to him as Osama ... until they noticed the similarity with Obama and changed their behavior.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4There was always
a mixture of spellings, so your portrayal that this is a recent phenomenon is not true.
Google results:
usama 2002
usama 2003
usama 2004
You will see a mixture of spellings here, but all of these uses of 'Usama' are well-before anyone even heard of Obama. Again your attempt to tie him to a terrorist is ridiculous and has far-reaching implications beyond just mocking the MSM.
(edit):
Likewise if you put a search in for Osama at MSNBC, you get these results, many with current uses of 'Osama'.
If you search for 'Usama' you get results
before 2004 also.
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/
I don't deny that the spelling has always been conflicted.
But my comment in reference to the MSM was mainly directed at the talking heads on Fox, CNN, MSNBC, and to a lesser degree in the print media. I am not claiming an all or nothing switchover here, just a noticable shift.
It is a minor point. Thanks for your research. I stand corrected, if corrected is what they demonstrate.
I actually consider Obama the best option among the Democrats so I'll refrain from further mispellings.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Why are you a Republican, GR
Lots of reasons. Why do you ask?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4If you wonder why Republicans are viewed as Racist
The joke of calling Barack Obama 'Ubama' is one of the reasons why.
And don't play dumb with the "just trying to be funny" crap.
I'm not big on making fun of
people's names, but why is it rascist?
name the enemy, win the war
Ditto...
It's not like Hillary hasn't garnered a large number of unflattering nicknames and comparisons too, for example =)
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Yes, and I'm sure that the abuse of Hillary is policy based
And completely free of sexist motives and content.
Incredibly disrespectful of identity for one
Bear in mind, this comment came after a couple of days of discussion between myself and GoRight on racism in the past and included his assertion that the Republicans have apologized for the racist past and that it is unfair to saddle them with the extremists like the KKK, Aryan Nation and Stormfront.
First an explanation: If one had enormous respect for Hillary's ability but wanted to make sure she wasn't elected, would it be sexist to call her a 'nag' and a 'silly woman' to get the sexist voting impulse even if YOU thought that she was just capable as a man? I'd say yes.
So, on that note:
They aren't making fun of his name. What is the joke here? They are trying to create a big bucket made up of dark skinned folks with Middle East sounding names of that will get people to say "Hmmm. Do I really want to vote for someone with a name like that?"
Do they do it because they hate black people? I don't think so. But they are willing to use the 'be afraid of the foreign sounding, dark skinned folks' message in order to get votes.
In this case I did it to make fun of the MSM
for even noticing it and obviously changing their behavior. The point being exactly the opposite of what you claim, who cares about a name?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Why did I change the spelling to Ubama?
(1) Who is that a reference to? [Answer: Usama Bin Laden as the MSM have been referring to him.]
(2) And what, given all of my posts, is the most dinguishing characteristic associated with the person to whom we both know I am referring? What do I consider that person above all else? [Answer: He is a terrorist icon.]
(3) So how is that a reference to race? [Answer: It isn't.]
(4) My spelling was more to draw attention to the MSM reaction than anything else.
(5) Even if "I" were being racist here (which I was not), does that justify generalizing to the entire Republican party?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Racism in the GOP:
The trouble is, GoRight, is that the racists and extremists, although they may well be in the minority, as oppposed to the majority, have successfully hijacked the GOP, pulling it much, much furthur to the Right.
I'm sorry but this simply isn't true.
The racists and extremists are not running the GOP. This is in stark contrast to the way that DailyKos and MoveOn herd the Democrats around. Hell, DailyKos was running an ad a while back claiming that they were nothing but a bunch of sheep! :)
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4The Republican Party has been radically moved to the Right, and
many of the Evangelical Fundamentalist Christians have also managed to hijack the GOP.
You asked, I answered
This type of willingness is why the racism charge still sticks.
The Obama->Osama correlation is not uniquely your own. The right (and general punditry) have commented on his middle name in a similar fashion. It is a variant on the dehumanization attack. Rather than calling him or morphing him into an animal, you are morphing him into a terrorist. Someone who can not be trusted and someone with who no reasonable debate is possible.
Given the history of such attacks on groups prior to or during their oppression/genocide it is INCREDIBLY tone deaf to engage in it 'by accident'. Intentionally or not, this is why Republicans get charged with racism.
It is like when Mel Gibson was accused of anti-semitism for putting on a "Passion" movie. Passion plays being a long standing tool to incite violence against the Jewish people. And SHOCK, despite his protestations to the contrary, events later proved there to be a fair amount of anti-semitism in the man.
knocienz
I can see it now. Two guys are siting around drinking mead on a cool night in 687 AD.
A: Let's go beat up some Jews. I hate 'em.
B: Naw. I'm kinda tired of that.
A: Well, maybe we could do it big time. But how?
B: Hey, I know. Let's invent the "Passion Play." That way, we can incite violence against Jews on a mob scale.
A: But aren't you afraid that someone will think that such plays have something to do with re-enacting the events surrounding the death of the Lord? I mean, don't you think that some may think that we are honouring the Prince of Peace?
B: That's a chance we'll have to take. Maybe some people will be that stupid. But most, I think, will see it as a call to go beat on the Jews.
.....
Little did these men know that in our times, it would be forgotten that men and women hang on every word of those who speak in public looking for cues to perpetrate vio9lence. But some, of keen mind and with long racial memories, such as yourself, are better than the rest of us, and do remember. Thank you sir.
Now I realize that Braveheart was nothing but a tool to incite violence against the English. And a fine cause it was.
Note on the made up controversy about Obama (one letter away from Osama). ON the Muslim boards, 'Usama' seemed to be the preferred form, and 'UBL' the preferred abbreviation. In fact, Arabic is written without vowels, and the actual sounds may differ from place to place. Transliteration into English differs with the habit in different places. Sayyid Qutb is also seen as Sayed Qtub, for instance.
When I started hanging out at non-Muslim boards, it actually took me a while to get used to substituting 'O' for 'U.' But it is true that "Usama" became one of the most popular names in the Middle East after 9/11.
Heh, I like your little illustrative stories...
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Joking about Passion Plays and Anti-Semitism
Passion plays have historically led to violence against the Jewish community. Anyone who hasn't revealed themselves as a raging Anti-Semite produce a one lately?
As for your farcicle conversation... very funny. I'll bear it in mind the the next time you get all offended when someone makes a joke about old people.
Well, yes
A local church nearby produces a passion play every year. Apparently they have been doing so for much llonger than I have been a resident. And there are no reports of violence against Jews as a result.
In fact, I don't think the people are anti-Semite. But of course, if putting on a passion play is the mark of anti-Semitism to you, you will think differently.
My little farcicle conversation was aimed at your language, that passion plays are a tool to foment violence against Jews. It didn't seem to occur to you in your language that there could be any other reason for putting on a passion play. You seemed to be saying that like a hammer is to a nail, the passion play is to violence against Jews, the primary tool.
I must admit that this is not immediately obvious to me. Nor does your reference to the movie show me anything.
Now, please tell me what this has to do with making prejudiced remarks against a class of people based on their age. What group do you think my remarks were aimed at?
I'm glad you brought it up, though, because I hadn't picked up before that your remarks are mere prejudice against the kind of people who put on passion plays, that is, Christians. Yep, they all want to commit or cause to be committed, violence against Jews.
Yep, yep, if we see a passion play, we know the only reason for its existence is to cause violence against Jews.
I'll bet if them thar Palestiners stopped with the suicidal bombing and started putting on passion plays, they'd be a dam site more successful.
Patterns have meaning
What this has to do with prejudiced remarks against people based on age, I would have thought obvious. Why do you find those jokes offensive? Aren't any of them funny? I'm sure many younger folks might find them quite entertaining?
Could it be because the elderly are often ridiculed and that such ridicule is how they are disempowered and ignoring them made acceptable? Perhaps people should be a tad sensitive before they make jokes about the elderly considering how often such ridicule is used as a prelude to abuse.
"The Jews Killed Jesus" has been used as a prelude to abuse for centuries. Often the Passion Play is the form that this takes. As for your local church, I don't know. Do they do the common "Jews as ugly, bestial mob, screaming for blood while Pilate reluctantly goes along" or have they avoided this particular viciousness?
Knocienz
I can see you don't get what i was saying.
All I was pointing at was the notion that Passion Plays are the tool for fomenting violence against Jews, and have no other purpose (being a tool for a certain purpose).
Had you said that historically speaking, Passion Plays sometimes seemed to be followed by and were spurs for violence against Jews, I would have had nothing to say.
You intimation that those who put on Passion Plays are interested in nothing more than violence against Jews is on a par with the notion that Jews kidnap unbaptized Christian babies and drink their blood.
The purpose of a Passion Play is not to echo that the "Jews killed Jesus." That's just prejudice and ignorance. IN a Passion Play, Pilate is reluctant, but the Jewish elders insist on the punishment because the Romans have promised that Jewish law would be enforced. The mob, manipulated by the Jewish priests, demands that Barabbas be released instead of Jesus. Throughout, there is the sense of inevitability because these events are the object of jesus' coming to earth in the first place, and are necessary as predicted by the bible.
It's not like you to fall for this easy prejudice. You can do better.
BTW, perhaps you don't realize, but the hero of the Passion Play, the object of worship for the players and the audience, is a Jew.
No, that was the inference you chose to make
Not my impication at all. You simply chose to take it that way. My intimation is that, as you say, for centuries, across multiple countries, Passion Plays are followed by strongly statistically significant increases in violence against Jews. Given that fact, people who actually cared about 'loving their neighbor' would say "Man, that's screwed up! Why does this formula lead to such screwed up behavior? We'd better figure out what's up and fix this!"
Responsible organizaitons, including both Catholics and Lutherans groups have done so and worked to avoid these issues. Whether your local church is one such organization, I have no idea.
You don't say! Well I'm sure that means that there are no anti-semitic folks who profess a belief in Christianity, 'cause that would be hypocrisy and we know that doesn't exist anywhere! Why, that would involve people differentiating between those they believe are aspects of god and those they have been raised to believe are on a path to eternal hellfire!
I suspec ted
that that was the inference you wanted to make, but instead you said that Passion plays were a tool to bring about violence against Jews. 'Tool' implies intention, as in, the intention of a Passion Play is to bring about violence against Jews. That's why one would say that it is a tool for doing so.
Let's say that you have a hammer and some mails, which you want to hammer into a board. Now let's say that we agree that the hammer is a tool for hammering nails. You do so. In the course of your hammering, a few boards split on you. So you can say that more boards split when you use a hammer to pound nails. But you might not say that the hammer was a tool for splitting boards.
And i did think you made it sound as if it was always or next to always the case that where there was a Passion Play, there was violence against Jews. (One would have to look at the change over baseline, of course.) I'm not sure how one would support such a claim. Clearly, the Nurembourg Town Crier probably would not take to the streets to announce, "Hear ye, hear ye, Passion Play performed, and there was no violence against Jews. Hell to freeze over tonight!" And such a thing probably would not be recorded in the town records.
It is also true that the plague led to more violence against Jews. But would you say that the plague was a tool for increasing violence against Jews?
Don't be so serious. I'm a literalist. it was just something that caught my eye.
Who is Mark Penn
Mark Penn is Hillary Clinton's cheif strategist...... the Karl Rove of Hillary's campaign.
Understanding that you can't win the Presidency without tons of money I still find this enormously unsettling.
He is the author of a book 'Microtrends', and has been a pollster since 1975.
He helped Bill Gates tread water and swim out of the anti-trust lawsuit, and turn the Microsoft brand into Most Trusted.
Bio
I'm only half stupid
Critical difference being--
That Penn is merely a campaign advisor, while Rove got a plum job as a high-ranking White House advisor.
Think back to '92. James Carville was Bill Clinton's Karl Rove. Yet after the election, it was "Thanks Jim, great job; here's your check-- we'll call you if we need you in '96." It wasn't "Thanks Karl, great job buddy, what job do you want in my Administration?"
By the way, whoever has been working with Hillary on her image and speaking has done a tremendous job-- I think her image has improved immensely over the past few years, and what else can you ask for from a PR firm?
Not unsettled here.
And so what if he helped Bill Gates? Bill Gates is a good Democrat.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Umm, was Rove a high ranking White House advisor
before Bush was elected? That's hardly a reasonable comparison.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4No, and that's why I provided the Carville example
Republicans tend to promote political hacks into positions of power after they win elections:
Karl Rove-- No explanation needed-- Top man in the campaign before the election, top advisor after the election. Had his office in the West Wing.
Nuff said.
William Casey-- ran Reagan's 1980 campaign, was given the plum job of CIA director & got mixed up in the Iran Contra scandal.
Lee Atwater-- ran Bush41's 1988 campaign, was rewarded with plum job as RNC chairman, thus obviating the need for a plum White House position, especially given the extent that Republicans cross-pollinate election politics and executive branch administration.
Ed Rollins, Ronald Reagan's 1984 campaign manager-- no plum assignment after election-- the exception proves the rule.
On the other hand;
Pat Caddell, Jimmy Carter's 1976 campaign manager-- received no plum assignment or official position after the election.
I bet you've heard of Karl Rove, Lee Atwater, Ed Rollins, and William Casey. Pat Caddell? I bet not. That's because the Republican political hacks were given high profile leadership positions after their various campaign gigs. James Carville is aslo a household name, but only because he became a staple on cable news, a job that he got on his own.
My conclusions?
Whereas Republican Presidents hand out plum jobs to political hacks, Democrats tend to hire experts for advisors, rather than their campaign gurus. Instead, when Democrats win, Democrats hand their campaign gurus a check, tell them TYVM, and send them off to be talking heads on CNN, etc.. I can't prove that Mark Penn won't get a Karl Rove type role in a HRC administration, but I would severely doubt that it will happen. If you have evidence to the contrary, let's have it.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Food for thought
If you run google search on "obama site:.stormfront.org" it returns about 771 from from stormfront.org for obama
but you get NO results for "ubama site:.stormfront.org"
Isn't it interesting that Limpbrain and his freeper buddies are to the right of the American Nazis on this one.
Sic semper tyrannis
Dolchstoblegende
It's not just for German's any more.
Dolchsoblegende
As the dollar weakens, are we seeing disturbing parallels to another time?
Doesn't anyone ever learn the lessons of history? Viet Nam, guerilla warfare, using mercenaries.
As the right becomes more and more desparate, they screech about the homeland, false patriotism as signified by lapel pins and a new form of MacCarthyism, that says don't criticize the war or you are with the terrorists.
I just wonder, are cufflinks also considered patriotic?
I'm only half stupid
just good old fashioned MacCarthyism
just substitute 'terror'-ism for 'commun'-ism. OR with the looming threat of universal health care coverage, we could also substitue 'social'-ism.
Do you support the terrorists by advocating a change of policy in Iraq and universal health care coverage?
I'm only half stupid
Are you now
or have you ever been a member of the terrorist group "Media Matters"?
Sic semper tyrannis
Yes.
I'm only half stupid
I hope
that Limpbrain isn't a reference to another poster here...
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Sorry - Freudian slip
it was supposed to be Limpoxycontin
Sic semper tyrannis
oops
done it again. Darn. Better not try again.
Sic semper tyrannis
Doesn't he take other drugs for that?
When he's off visiting the Dominican Republic, his little blue pills make him just plain Oxycotin
Hillary's electability/polarization
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/03/AR200710...
I believe there are (and personally hold) substantive ideological reasons to oppose Hillary getting the nomination, for instance the dynastic issue as well as her consummate politician-ness, but her electability just isn't one of them.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
They just don't get it
story
Not surprisingly some on redstate are appaled at this.
Unfortunately they reserve their ire for hypothetical "bean counters" rather than blaming, say, the commander and chief they elected twice. It seems no amount of proof that the bush administration doesn't give a damn about the troops will sway them from their narrow ideological prejudices.
You'd think the blatant disregard at Walter Reed would have been enough to cause some doubts, but apparently not.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
I absolutely agree that this type of tactic is wrong.
Regardless of who initiated it.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4This is fairly standard
a way for the govt to save millions of dollars, and I don't think it is anything terribly new.
Odd that our soldiers are offered, opportunity nets and safety nets, for serving their country, yet those that have served their country by being law abiding citizens that have spent a lifetime working and contributing to the economy as productive citizens are considered by some as parasites who represent socialism and don't deserve a safety net, either medicare or social security.
I'm only half stupid
Pretty pathetic, and seemingly intentional
Coincidences happen, but it just doesn't seem like this could be an accident.
365 days in a year
730 = 365 x 2
729 = 2 years - 1 day
As far as I know there's no such thing as a negative leap year. So, no real reason to write orders for 729 days except to screw soldiers out of benefits.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
"I never compromised my humanity"
Said the Nazi interogater, George Frenkel, who matched wits with enemy combatants from the Third Reich.
"For six decades, they held their silence.
The group of World War II veterans kept a military code and the decorum of their generation, telling virtually no one of their top-secret work interrogating Nazi prisoners of war at Fort Hunt.
“We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or Ping-Pong than they do today, with their torture,” said Henry Kolm, 90, an MIT physicist who had been assigned to play chess in Germany with Hitler’s deputy, Rudolf Hess.
”During the many interrogations, I never laid hands on anyone,” said George Frenkel, 87, of Kensington. “We extracted information in a battle of the wits. I’m proud to say I never compromised my humanity."
Taking the high road
It is stories like this that make me proud of my country. In the face of temptation to exact revenge, and become like the monster you are trying to defeat, you remember that justice requires that you respect human rights, even under the most diffiicult circumstances.
I'm only half stupid
Good points, missliberties.
Unfortunately, today's people in power are often much more arrogant, lacking in humiility, and have the attitude that "anything goes". This, in turn, has led to the torture and situations such as Guantanamo Bay. Shameful, indeed.