America's Marxist Campuses - Why & How?

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No one else likes Hippies either, calm down.

I had a longer response, but that got lost in cyberspace...

The "shorter" versionr:

As a high school graduate of 2002, I have almost no clue what you are talking about [MSM's Bill O'Reilly has kept me informed of the massive far-far left liberal bias in Universities] Maybe I took the wrong history, geography, economics, and logic classes [I actually did take all those]. Maybe its that the Bowling Green State University favicon has very few actual "professors" and most classes are run by "instructors."

"In America, virtually no matter where one attends school, students don't get that China [funds the]...genocide in Darfur"
LeBron James already knows that, he is teaching the kids.

They aren't familiar with the Koranic verses such as "the Infidel is your inveterate enemy... " But they keep searching for the root causes of Muslim hatred, and they are certain that terrorism is the result of what the United States, obviously the worst country on the planet, does or does not do.

There are nearly Two Billion Muslims in the world, I'm guessing most aren't killing the infidel. Just keep people away from Saudi funded Mosque.

Instead, they blame the "greedy" U.S. oil companies, whose "obscene" profit margins are actually not as healthy as many other industries despite $4.00 a gallon gas.

Comparing profit margins across industries is like comparing apples to oranges. Comparing profit margins for companies in the same field and of the similar size can be like comparing Cooking Apples to Eating Apples.
And I think most people were complaining about the "obscene after tax profit" of the oil companies.[I'm not sure how the oil industries net sales compares to other industries, but I'm guessing the "relatively" low margin is made up by massive sales volume that is mostly inelastic]

A class that directly falls under history, the study of spacial distribution of things, or economics aren't generally required elective courses across the board.

An aside ["know nothing" was mentioned, that sparked memories]:
Know Nothing favicon
----The Know Nothing movement was a "nativist" American political movement of the 1850s. It was empowered by popular fears that the country was being overwhelmed by Irish Catholic immigrants, who were often regarded as hostile to US values and controlled by the Pope in Rome.

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In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Even one peek at a you tube video...

...of students being interviewed on the issues facing the world we live in would quickly validate my premise.

But you calm down dude, I probably am a hippie in your book, a conservative one, but yah, I probably would qualify. ;-)

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"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." ~ B. Goldwater

www.TheRedWing.com

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Hippie!

Die Hippie, Die, "they smoke pot, wear crap and smell bad." favicon

Even one peek at a [likely heavily edited] you tube video......of students being interviewed on the issues facing the world we live in would quickly validate my premise.

Maybe those kids haven't had classes pertaining to the questions yet, or they are busy just getting by and "so almost getting laid last night" and getting "soooo wasted."

Anytime any of the 2 tenured professors I had [one geography and one in history], both would make the students aware in some way that they were "going off topic" and/or "spotting personal opinions" and "agreeing with them would not gain brownie points"
The geography prof spent some deal of time [back in late 2002] talking about how if the US did invade Iraq, it would be like the Persian Gulf War where, for the most part, the US sat back and launched "Mavericks" at tanks from afar. And that the war would get dirty, the US will likely have to go door to door clearing houses and deal with a population of people that don't really like their neighbors all too much. And that a US death toll reaching into the thousands would be a best case scenario.
The History prof mostly "let" his teaching assistant do nearly half the lectures [the prof was in his last semester and broke his leg fairly bad the semester before]. The closest thing he would go to being a "stereotypical" tenured hippie aged prof was pointing out that the US invaded the Philippines in 1898 to set up a naval base and spent a good deal of time crushing a rebellion and even executed a few Muslim POW's using munitions allegedly dipped in pig fat, but that the US did build help build the local infrastructure.

__________________________

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Ok, LOL...

Did you read the above post Brutus?

Anyway, I was talking about a whole host of videos, not unlike Leno when he walks the streets and poses simple current events questions, these guys stroll college campuses and do essentially that same thing.

Here's a fun example of how our campuses are evolving favicon. Watch the whole thing, it's classic!

__________________________

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." ~ B. Goldwater

www.TheRedWing.com

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protesters on campus don't represent students

Berkeley (the entire city) is a strange place, and not at all representative of national college campuses. Also, those types of protests often draw many people who are not affiliated with the university (many of the kids looked like high-schoolers).

Here's what the Economist has to say about Berkeley favicon:

A generation ago, [the students] would have been turning the town upside down.
Today, they study. Berkeley's largest ethnic group is Asian-American.
The ageing hippies in the city council find them shockingly
conservative. When the campus police chief wrote an open letter
explaining policies to deal with tree-sitters, 400 students wrote back,
90% in favour of removing them faster.

 

 

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"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was made a man." --Frederick Douglas favicon

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people are poorly informed--so what?

Much of this argument seems to be based on the premise that previous generations of Americans (or college students, at least) were a bunch of well-informed deep thinkers.

I really doubt that. If it is true that college students are less informed/intelligent that previous generations,  it probably has more to do with the ideology of mass education ("send everyone to college!") and broader societal trends (such as easy affluence) than with college professors.

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"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was made a man." --Frederick Douglas favicon

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Every generation is the best educated ever

And I mean that with no irony at all. If it does not seem that way it is only because we don't appreciate the explosion of human knowledge. As recently as 500 years ago it was possible for a very gifted person to be on the forefront of a dozen fields of human knowledge. Today? You have to be extremely gifted to master the tiniest subsection of one field of human knowledge. The sheer volume of what we know has doubled and doubled again at an increasng rate.

A Da Vinci in today's terms would be an idiot. You and I have vastly more sheer data in our heads. We know infinitely more about how the world works.

It's easy to seem smart when the text books are all pamphlets.

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Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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data vs. theory

...vastly more sheer data

More importantly, we have better theories in our head...so that data is encoded more efficiently.

__________________________

"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was made a man." --Frederick Douglas favicon

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is there hope?

Does this mean that you have some shred of hope for humanity?   :^)

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"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was made a man." --Frederick Douglas favicon

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Anarchism is

a fundamentally optimistic theory.

I am deeply in awe of what we can be, and equally ashamed of what we choose to be.

__________________________

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Two thoughts

First, I agree with Brutus's assessment. I graduated in 2007. I had the semi-infamous (and late) Dr. Robert Sumser favicon for a history class. He was certainly an unabashed leftist but didn't attempt to manipulate his students in any way. He gave high marks for critical thought, not regurgitating his ideology.

His foil, Dr. Martin Arbagi, was also very fair, and I had him for a different history class.

I found no political bias in any classes I had nor did I ever hear of any political bias from other students.

Second, if indeed what you say is true, what is the remedy to the situation? David Horowitz demanded an "affirmative action" program to require universities to hire conservative professors.

Liberals and other left-wing types self-select for the university life. Professorships simply don't appeal to most conservatives. This is not a bias in hiring, but a bias in who applies to open positions.

I could make the same charge about the military since about 1/2 the military are Republicans or conservatives. Is the military trying to keep liberals out of uniform? No. Liberals just aren't as likely as conservatives to want to be in the military. Not only does that situation not require a remedy, it isn't even a problem.

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I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to... favicon

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Oh Stinerman...

Ok Stinerman, is it;

"The fragmented American flag that sparked complaints last May is still displayed in the office window of history professor Robert Sumser. The display has been clearly visible from the Millett Hall parking lot for more than a year..."

or, is it;

"I found no political bias in any classes I had nor did I ever hear of any political bias from other students."

Obama was the only person I have seen recently holding two simultaneously opposing positions, until now that is... ;-)

__________________________

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." ~ B. Goldwater

www.TheRedWing.com

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Re: Obama Holding 2 Positions

Obama was the only person I have seen recently holding two simultaneously opposing positions, until now that is... ;-)

Unless of course we listen to John McCain drill here and now since-the-polls-dictate-it strategy. Or his seemingly every-other-week switiching between Populism for the American People and Business Solutions are the Best!

Don't get me wrong, I think both guys are trying to find which part of the Center they'd like to occupy, but let's be sure that both of them are guilty of flipping er, evolving, umm..shifting? on policy issues. (I think "shifting" is the word being used this week.)

Oh, and welcome to our little niche! we don't get into Flame Wars as much as say a RedState or DailyKos (unless you try to go up against Tlaloc) but I do hope you stick around. The Conservatives here would definitely be glad to have you on board.

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eh...

McCain is a Federalist with respect to drilling, always has been. So though he has recognized the urgency of the oil crisis and moved in a natural way Republicans move, to the right, toward his party, Obama has abandoned his core, and moved to the center on everything he ran the primary on.

As for the two positions at once thing, this is an Obama phenomenon, in that often on issues, lets take gun control for instance, he takes one side clearly articulating his position, or so we think, then when, as it did with the gun control issue, it turns out another way, he claims that is what he was saying all along, troop withdrawal is another example, he claimed 16 months, 16 months, 16 months, then when that came under attack he simply said he always advocated it was dependant on the situation on the ground, yet he fired a staffer for even suggesting such a thing a few months earlier?

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"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." ~ B. Goldwater

www.TheRedWing.com

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I've Admitted

that Obama is playing the Running-for-President political game that everyone plays. Can you admit that McCain, with his his meandering views on obscene profits and CEO pay and his silly gas tax day, is doing the same? Come on..I won't tell anyone ;-)

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I concede, yes, that...

...both will make adjustments.

But will you concede that Obama's are substantially more numerous and far reaching?

I mean we could line them out. ;-)

__________________________

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." ~ B. Goldwater

www.TheRedWing.com

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The two are not mutually exclusive

Bias refers to giving those with opposing views or arguments lower grades. He did not do this.

If I am a professor and I burn an American flag daily on the quad (every university has a quad), but I grade assignments fairly, based on the merits of the arguments and overall quality of thinking, I am not biased.

I did not hear of any reports that conservative professors graded liberal arguments more harshly or vice versa. In fact, my very liberal philosophy instructor gave me a relatively poor grade because I did not defend my position that the death penalty was immoral well enough.

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I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to... favicon

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I'd take it a little further than that

beyond grading (which is certainly important) I'd also hope that the professor would create an environment where students felt safe to make controvercial or unpopular arguments. That's a function of the openness of the class as opposed to just the assignments.

However it is also an ideal, something for teachers to strive for, not something they can be rigidly held to.

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I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Agreed

I thought of adding that to my post after reading it but never got around to it.

All I have is anecdotal evidence that no conservatives had any trouble doing well or voicing their opinions in Dr. Sumser's classes.

__________________________

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to... favicon

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It'd certainly be hard to quantify

That's what I hate about social studies. Give me nice discrete particles any day.

__________________________

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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2005 College Grad here..

and although I finished the Core Curriculum in 2002, I don't remember too much leftist attitude. Probably because I was just focused on getting the good grade and regurgitation. I don't think I learned any conservative thoughts though--however, now that I think about it, when I took Black history the professor thought I was a bit too conservative for her tastes, but whatever.

Ultimately, I think students will make up their own minds or continue to shape their ideologies as they leave college and see how their learned theories have played out in practice, whether that be the Tax Cuts Solve Everything School of Economics or the Rich People Don't Pay Enough School of Socioeconomic Equality. People will generally move towards where they feel most comfortable and what they've seen work.

At least that's how I'd approach it.

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It tickles me that...

...although we all know, and would readily concede, that our universities are in a state of liberal rapture right now, no one seems to want to acknowledge knowing anything about it?

Next time Ann Coulter comes to your local college or university to speak, just go for fun and get back to me as to what you find, and how our unbiased, hard matriculating student body responds!

LOL!

Thats another point, the left is militant now, they will spit and scream and throw things, they are absolutely afraid of any "outside", and that is a key word here, because they are currently insulated in their schools with their professors, and seemingly scared to death that someone may topple that house of cards they've built!

__________________________

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." ~ B. Goldwater

www.TheRedWing.com

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I went to Ga. Tech, so..

..not exactly a school of social protest. I went to Morehouse College before than and only took a handful of liberal arts courses. You can't really politicize engineering and math. Sure there were demonstrations on campus every now and again at Tech by the College Republicans. They had their Affirmative Action bake sales (though Tech did not have an AA admission policy) and they protested the Vagina Monologues (I did not attend either event). What they couldn't apparently handle is when people counter-protested.

I've always supported the right for young kids to state their opinions on campus and engage each other. But in the classroom, I don't think I was punished for what I believed in, even if it sometimes was considered "non-liberal."

Oh, and Ann Coulter is not a conservative. She just plays one to sell books. Sorry, I just don't think she contributes much to the conservative cause--I think Michael Moore has done more to strengthen conservatives than Ann has. She's more like Bill Maher--a political comedian.

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I probably agree with the Ann Coulter thing goes...

...but the fact still remains?

__________________________

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." ~ B. Goldwater

www.TheRedWing.com

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You are construing from a correlation

There's a simple reason that academia skews left- it is made up a population of people who by and large skew left demographically.

Far from meaning that the left has some infamous control of schools it means schools tend to represent their students. Bully for them.

We can even go further and break down universities into various component schools. Humanities tend to skew very left. Business and economics usually skew right. Hard and computer sciences skew a little left. Engineering tends to skew a little right. And so on. This reflects the interests, prejudices, and values of the students and faculty who are attracted to these fields. That's not a bad thing so long as it doesn't threaten the intellectual rigor of the field.

Now I do agree that some thought and care should be taken to make sure the minority is not suppressed in terms of being able to express their views. Otherwise you risk creating an echo chamber.

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I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Yes I was addressing the Liberal Arts/Humanities...

...But this is a new phenomenon, one that has evolved, as I assert, over the past few decades due to the influence of the then called "New Left" counter culture movement which has greatly effected our schools in a negative way.

I don't think kids come out of high school with these radical views, so your suggestion that the schools "represent" their students is a mute point.

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"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." ~ B. Goldwater

www.TheRedWing.com

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I think a lot of that has to do

with changes in the humanities themselves.

Consider psychology. Freudian psychology says that you can only ever identify your problems- you cannot actually "fix" them. This is a fundamentally conservative viewpoint because conservativism is founded upon a notion that human frailties are eternal and unchanging (contrasted with liberalism which posits that humanities worst aspects can be prevented or at least mitigated).

But Freud fell out of favor with psychologists some time ago. You aren't going to find many strict psychoanalysts in psychology departments anymore. Instead more liberal philosophies developed and were widely accepted.

Now we could debate a chicken and egg argument about whether the liberal philosophies promote the interest of liberal students or if liberal students promoted liberal philosophies, but I doubt either of us has really studied the issue enough to make a convincing case.

As for high school students- generally at that point a person doesn't have much of an individual philosophy. Instead they have something very heavily based on their family and peers (either aligned or in opposition). But it's pretty widely recognized that young adults commonly experience a period of resentment at perceived societal injustice and a desire to change things, both of which tend to be more liberal than conservative. Similarly in middle age people often have more desire for security and personal prosperity over societal injustice and that demographic skews more conservative.

Side note- you mean "moot" point, not mute. It's a common malapropism but one that's a pet peeve. :)

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………… parent

Mute! LOL!

The older I get the more I'm doing that? Yikes!

__________________________

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." ~ B. Goldwater

www.TheRedWing.com

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Huh? What was I supposed to have conceded?

I don't concede that our universities are in a state of "liberal rapture" fomented by the faculty. Sure, the univerities are more liberal than society as a whole, but I don't think that the profossers have as much to do with that as the students. It appears to me that young people are just naturally much more liberal-- or more accurately, more idealistic-- I think because they haven't been around enough to see that good intentions don't always lead to good outcomes.

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skymutt: wise and powerful... enlightened...

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Damn, I'm starting to feel old

I graduated high school in 93 and college in 98.

Then again I found out a really cute girl I've been talking to was born in 1987. That's so wrong.

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I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Gee thanks, HS - 82 and College - 86/88... :-(

n/t

__________________________

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." ~ B. Goldwater

www.TheRedWing.com

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No insult meant :)

I was surprised so many other posters here were younger than me. I guess that becomes more and more likely as time goes on though :P

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I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Cradle-robber :-)

If you aren't more discerning in the future, you might join your child-porn buddy in his legal troubles...

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skymutt: wise and powerful... enlightened...

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Not cool, peter panda!

This girl is definitely legal, hey as of the last month she can even buy alcohol.

On the other hand she's closer to my son's age than mine. Anyway I doubt anything is going to happen there anyway.

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I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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You've got some sweeping generalizations in here

But no links, no evidence.  I already know the stereotype of the academic as the out-of-touch, politically correct, bleeding heart liberal, but how am I to know if the stereotype is true or not?  More to the point, how do you know that this stereotype is the truth?  Is it by your own independent first-hand observations?  Empirical findings from carefully conducted research on the matter?  Anecdote at least?

You've got to do a little better than this.  This is just a screed; you back up none of your broad-brush assertions.

 

 

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skymutt: wise and powerful... enlightened...

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Ok, fair enough...

...I thought as the postulations I asserted were not quotes, obscure historical events, or what have you, that we could agree on the basis, and debate the corollary issues.

My opinions are of course my own, and thus being as this represents my subjective views on the objective findings we all would agree upon, do you really feel I should go through and put a link to the fact that in 1968 there was a democratic convention in Chicago, or that it was disrupted by a protest, etc.?

__________________________

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." ~ B. Goldwater

www.TheRedWing.com

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Don't be obtuse

do you really feel I should go through and put a link to the fact that
in 1968 there was a democratic convention in Chicago, or that it was
disrupted by a protest, etc.?

Come on now, we both know that you know that those aren't the assertions I was talking about.

I'm talking about assertions like this:

Is it too much to ask that you back that up with a link at minimum?  Surely you don't expect all of us to be already familiar with this "documentation". do you?

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skymutt: wise and powerful... enlightened...

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Ok, you are correct on that passage...

I wasn't trying to be "obtuse", I tried to answer your post with thoughtful consideration.

...it escaped me, I'm multi-tasking!

LOL! :-)

I'll give the link. Thanks.

__________________________

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." ~ B. Goldwater

www.TheRedWing.com

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Where's my link, ol' buddy ol' pal?

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skymutt: wise and powerful... enlightened...

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The layout of academia

First, I think Taloc made a spot-on description:

We can even go further and break down universities into various
component schools. Humanities tend to skew very left. Business and
economics usually skew right. Hard and computer sciences skew a little
left. Engineering tends to skew a little right. And so on. This
reflects the interests, prejudices, and values of the students and
faculty who are attracted to these fields. That's not a bad thing so long as it doesn't threaten the intellectual rigor of the field.

 

So, let's reiterate that we're just talking about the humanities here (as being far leftist).

Second, I'm not even sure that "Marxist" is an appropriate description. Marx was a 19th century materialist--much of contemporary leftist academia post-modernist or something. Really, there are a lot of differences in how they view the world and society. Perhaps the only big association between the two is the emphasis on the plight of hte oppressed--but that is also found in classical liberalism and Christianity (and probably many other traditions/ideologies). On top of that, I don't think that modern schools of humanities have much/anything to do with the Soviet Union. One glaring problem with that association is that the USSR was just as racist/imperialist as any western country (as was recognized by commies such as Guevara). For example, consider the ethnic resettlement policies of the USSR, where they required non-Russian nationalities to adopt Russian and encouraged Russians to settle in the other republics. 

Third, we have the issue of how the left came to dominate certain fields of academia. Was it some big conspiracy? If they got these professorships by default, we have to wonder why conservatives weren't seeking these positions. This idea that a bunch of pathetic losers just willed their way into positions of power is a bit implausible.

Finally, having admitted that these extreme leftists are limited to the humanities, we can ask whether that really gives them any influence. Humanities professors are beggars in academia--they don't bring in the research money that science and engineering do.  They do control some of the classic disciplines in academia, but do they have much influence over people who go on to exercise power? (It seems that George W. Bush was a history major) If their brainwashed minions are moving into positions of power, then perhaps the problem is in how we place people into positions of power.

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"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was made a man." --Frederick Douglas favicon

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"Third, we have the issue

"Third, we have the issue of how the left came to dominate certain fields of academia. Was it some big conspiracy? If they got these professorships by default, we have to wonder why conservatives weren't seeking these positions. This idea that a bunch of pathetic losers just willed their way into positions of power is a bit implausible."

The normal students got their degree's and went to work, like you and me.

Believe me there are plenty of intellectual conservatives around, but they are usually people who have ambition to do things, not just sit around their whole working life talking about it.

Now don't get me wrong, I appreciate teachers and acedemia as much as anyone else, it is a admirable pursuit, but that is the case I think.

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"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." ~ B. Goldwater

www.TheRedWing.com

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Intellectual conservatives

the interesting thing is that there really aren't that many around. I don;t mean that to say that there aren't intelligent conservatives, there certainly are. But intellectual? How many modern conservative intellectuals can you name off the top of the head?

Buckley. Goldwater. They're both dead and already I'm starting to come up empty.

Modern conservativism seems remarkable in the dearth of intellectual rigor and a surplus of convenience. Social conservatives and fiscal conservatives share essentially nothing in common along intellectual lines, instead they are bound together by the convenience of a common political enemy (the left). Same with Social cons and defense cons.

It is less of a philosophy at this point and more of a bin. A place to put all those who are "not left" in america. Which is why we've seen so much rigamarole between the social cons and the fiscal cons in recent years. The glue holding them together is mere expediency. When either side of the partneship feels it is not getting what it wanted it suddenly has no reason to stay.

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Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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That is mostly a misnomer...

...all conservatives believe in 3 basic principles that bind us - Smaller Government, Strong Defense, and the Traditional American Value System. The issues that separate us are over played in the MSM and blown out of proportion by and large.

Being a New Federalist, I am still in complete agreement with virtually all conservatives on 95% of the issues.

As far as Conservative Intellectuals, how about Bill Kristol, Ken Adelman, Bill Bennett, Jeane Kirkpatrick, Peggy Noonan, Dinesh D'Souza, Michael Ledeen, Peter Robinson, Martin Anderson, Murray Wiedenbaum, Michael Horowitz, and Terry Eastland, just to name a few.

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"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." ~ B. Goldwater

www.TheRedWing.com

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Those are neo-cons

Almost all of those people are neo-conservatives. Neo-conservatives are essentially reformed Trotskyists. A good deal of those people don't believe in small government unless you're specifically talking about entitlements. Their foreign policy is utopian rather than realist.

I try to not call neo-conservatives "conservatives", but if you're willing to concede that people like Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz speak for conservatives, I'll start using the word "conservative" to refer to neo-cons.

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I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to... favicon

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Neo-Con...

...sounds like you are sort of trying to lump them all in with the life and times of Willmore Kendall. ;-)

We all are not ex Trotskyists! LOL!

Neo-Con is not my favorite term though, it was a slur used to attack Democrats that saw the light and moved to the right originally if I remember correctly.

The names I wrote were a response to the previous post, so off the top of my head the Reagan era set came to mind, being Reagan era Republicans they are typically, which I would suggest most of today's Republicans are, a mix of So-Con/Neo-Con, when I think of Neo-Con in an intellectual sense I guess I think of people like Nathan Glazer or Irving Kristol.

How about the crop of conservative intellectuals who have passed away, but gave us an emense amout of material to consider, like Michael Oakeshott, Russell Kirk, or Robert Nisbet.

Michael Novak is around today, and never forget good old George Will.

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"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." ~ B. Goldwater

www.TheRedWing.com

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The George Wills of the world

are horrified by what passes for conservativism these days...

I think that rather supports my point more than yours :)

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I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Traditional American Value system -- a.k.a. racism

Smaller Government, Strong Defense, and the Traditional American Value System.

The TAVS is quite subjective. It rests on the illusion that there is one American tradition. Until the 1960s, the government made sure that blacks and whites had different traditions and value systems. When those two value systems conflict, which one should take precedence? Also, did we have good reason to discard the value of racism? Were the anti-racist radicals wrong during the decades that they fought against racism? Furthermore, the wealthy and the poor had different value systems. Which one are you talking about? On top of that, there are all the different value systems represented by the different traditional religions of America. There are also different value systems that were dominant in different regions of the country. You could even say that different families have different value systems (quite apparent in attitudes towards alcohol).

Don't get me wrong, I respect the usefulness of tradition in guiding our lives, but I am opposed to making a fetish around it or turning it into the foundation for a political movement. When you do that, tradition just becomes an excuse for attacking people who aren't like you.

BTW, when you attack people, don't be surprized that they hate you and your symbols.

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"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was made a man." --Frederick Douglas favicon

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Wow, you see things through a racial lens, it's much broader

I'm talking about the American values that have been at the heart of our greatness.

Following the Columbine shootings, Peggy Noonan described our world as 'the ocean in which our children now swim.' Noonan described the ocean as a cesspool of violence, and sex, and drugs, and indolence, and perversions. She said that the boys who did the shooting had 'inhaled too deeply in the oceans in which they swam.'

Our freedoms, including those guaranteed by the Bill of Rights, are under constant assault from activist judges and Congressional interference. That serves to eviscerate our core freedoms and Constitutional rights in the name of amorphous principles, and sets a dangerous precedent.

Right to life, 2nd Amendment, Same sex marriage are much better examples of Traditional American Values, then ...race.

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"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." ~ B. Goldwater

www.TheRedWing.com

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so its all arbitrary

I'm glad you clarified how we are able to pick and choose our traditional values, and how their importance is based on pseudo-scientific social theories.

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"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was made a man." --Frederick Douglas favicon

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(Shaking head....?)

Come again?

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"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." ~ B. Goldwater

www.TheRedWing.com

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traidtional american values: innovation and progress

I disagree that those values have made America great. In fact, they have often held us back and divided us.

The values that have made us great are a love of innovation (commercial, cultural, religious, etc.) and a willingness to accept anyone who has something to contribute to our society. These values are seen all throughout American history, yet they are antithetical to "conservatism", which wants to create a mythical "traditional" (and stagnant) America.

Noonan has her arbitrary social theories, I have mine.

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"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was made a man." --Frederick Douglas favicon

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TAVS: radical individualism

Sure, not everyone believed in radical individualism, reckless experimentation, or humanism...but plenty of Americans did, and I identify with them over those who didn't...so I declare that these are our traditions.

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"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was made a man." --Frederick Douglas favicon

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sexism AND racism

I don't see things through a racial lens, I was just using that as an example of the problem with using "tradition" as the standard for decision-making (whether lifestyle or policy).

 We could just as well focus on sexism.

Right to life, 2nd Amendment, Same sex marriage are much better examples of Traditional American Values, then ...race.

 The issue is in how we decide to change our values, since we obviously have changed our values in the past. Furthermore, once we abandon a particular value, how should we treat the practises and institutions that embodied this value.

One of the problems of modern conservatism is that the leaders claim to not be sexist, yet they insist on maintaining practises that were part of the sexist tradition. Their obsession with other people's sexuality (e.g. pregnancy termination, sex as part of marriage) makes it rather hard for the rest of us to believe them when they say that they aren't sexist. I don't really care what they think/say, I care what they do.

I'm not sayng that you (Red_Wing) are sexist; it's completely possible for a particular individual to be against abortion and against homosexuality for independent reasons--but when a movement is formed around these two issues we have to wonder what the connection is between them, and in this case the connection seems to be the control of other people's sexuality, and the use of sexuality as the basis of social organization.

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"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was made a man." --Frederick Douglas favicon

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3 principles

...all conservatives believe in 3 basic principles that bind us - Smaller Government, Strong Defense, and the Traditional American Value System.

Social cons don't particularly care about smaller government. On the contrary they've been pushing faith based government programs for years, not to mention the various anti-federalist positions such as we saw during the schiavo fiasco. Fiscal cons don't care much about traditional values, except of course greed (which granted is pretty darn traditional). They want to see smaller government and worries about dope fiends and "teh geighs" can go hang.

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I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Of course they do!

So-Cons definitely want smaller government, they support the same concepts as all other conservatives, just that they would support some government laws that protect socially traditional and conservative aphorisms.

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"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." ~ B. Goldwater

www.TheRedWing.com

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I don't see how you can support that

How do faith based programs support a smaller government? That involves a bigger government. It is in fact a redistribution (which you have indicated you find abhorrent) moving money from taxpayers to churches (because the government is paying churches to do things that the churches used to do anyway).

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I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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You're thinking GW's faith based initiatives....

I do not, and would never support that sort of government. This sort of thinking has been the real failure of GW's admin, and a big disappointment with conservatives, we didn't expect that.

Hey if I had it my way, there'd be no SS, no dept of ed, no IRS, no Fed, etc.

But in a conventional sense, So-Cons are increasing government intervention, by advocating laws like banning abortion, or same sex marriage. So they do expand the role government plays, but also believe in limited government in the same other ways conservatives look to limit government.

But again the ties that bind us are far greater than the issues that separate us.

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"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." ~ B. Goldwater

www.TheRedWing.com

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more conservative intellectuals

I like the blog In Media Res, for a unique yet clearly conservative perspective. One blog post provided a bit of a survey of modern conservative thinkers favicon.

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"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was made a man." --Frederick Douglas favicon

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conservative political philosophy in academia

When I took a survey course on political philosophy, I was told that the dominant school among philosophy professors was Rawlsian liberalism (center-left).

The only school that seemed to promote social conservatism was the communitarian school. Huckabee might fit into that school . The libertarian school provided the moral case for a free market...though I think conservatives typically take support the free market based on utilitiarian arguments. That's where the economists come in, and I did have the impression that my econ professor applied conservative morality to his description of economics.

I don't recall any explicitly traditionalist schools of thought. It might be hard for an academic to survive as a proponent of traditionalism, simply because you don't gain recognition by repeating the same old argument. A traditionalist academic would need to find new arguments for traditionalism, or at least provide good criticisms of the other schools. Perhaps a traditionalist scholar could examine to what extent we should maintain traditions in a changing world.

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"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was made a man." --Frederick Douglas favicon

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???? Funny!

Did you re-read what you wrote?

 

This self-contradiction isn't nearly as bad, but it's still pretty striking. Aside from the fact that many laymen (but not many economists, who tend to be conservative) are blaming speculators, you've basically wrote "the problem isn't that people are being greedy, it's that people are being greedy!" For most Americans, the two above issues (futures speculation and oil company greed) are basically the same thing. Most Americans don't have the economic sophistication to differentiate among the exact actors and exact mechanisms behind the price changes.

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"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was made a man." --Frederick Douglas favicon

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