Thursday Open Thread

Bush is giving a statement on the recent upheaval on Wall Street that will "emphasize that he and his administration are continuing to work on efforts to promote stability in the markets."

One of Palin's yahoo email accounts was hacked. There is concern that using personal accounts to discuss government business is insecure and also potentially non-transparent in that those emails aren't archived.

Microsoft is planning to strike back against the "I'm a PC" Apple ads. Open thread -- what's going on today?

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Privacy & hacking Palin's e-mail accounts.

Who ever did it should be prosecuted. It was wrong. It is informative, however, to see how the right has chosen this to play the victim. Glenn Greenwald points out:

"it's really a wondrous, and repugnant, sight to behold the Bush-following lynch mobs on the Right melodramatically defend the Virtues of Privacy and the Rule of Law. These, of course, are the same authoritarians who have cheered on every last expansion of the Lawless Surveillance State of the last eight years -- put their fists in the air with glee as the Federal Government seized the power to listen to innocent Americans' telephone calls; read our emails; obtain our banking, credit card, and library records; and create vast data bases of every call we make and receive and every prescription we fill and every instance of travel and other vast categories of information that remain largely unknown -- all without warrants or oversight of any kind and often in clear violation of the law.

The same political faction which today is prancing around in full-throated fits of melodramatic hysteria and Victim mode (their absolute favorite state of being) over the sanctity of Sarah Palin's privacy are the same ones who scoffed with indifference as it was revealed during the Bush era that the FBI systematically abused its Patriot Act powers to gather and store private information on thousands of innocent Americans; that Homeland Security officials illegally infiltrated and monitored peaceful, law-abiding left-wing groups devoted to peace activism, civil liberties and other political agendas disliked by the state; and that the telephone calls of journalists and lawyers have been illegally and repeatedly monitored.

Shouldn't these same people be standing up today and insisting that if Sarah Palin has done nothing wrong, then she should have nothing to hide? If Sarah Palin isn't committing crimes or consorting with The Terrorists, then why would she care if we can monitor her emails? And if private companies such as Yahoo can access her emails -- as they can -- then she doesn't really have any "privacy" anyway, so what's the big deal if others read through her communications, too? Isn't that the authoritarian idiocy that has been spewed since The Day That 9/11 Changed Everything -- beginning with the Constitution -- to justify vesting secret and unchecked surveillance powers in our Great and Good Leaders?"

Here's what I find important:

1) Palin has shown she's a perfect acolyte of Darth Cheney. Alaska requires it's elected officials to use Government (secure) e-mail and Palin uses Yahoo for Government business. Why? Because then an archive isn't kept on her coorespondence.

2) While Mayor of Wasilla, Palin was told she was acting against Alaska law she said "I'm the mayor, I can do whatever I want until the courts tell me I can't. '"

3) When Palin was confronted with illegally trying to pressure the Commander of the Alaska State Troopers to fire Palin's ex-brother-in-law, she pulls a bush43 move and declares neither she nor any state employees would honor the subpoenas issued by the Legislative investigative committee .

Conservatives try to act like they own "the rule of law" but in reality they are contemptuous of it and those that actually try to enforce conservatives to live by the rules they place upon all others.

What is the word for a group of people who compell others to live under rules that they themselves choose not to adhere to? Tyrants. Totalitarians. Royalists. Take your pick. None of them describe why our Founding Fathers fought a war with King George III over 200 years ago. Especially not to install a monarchy run by these fanatical right wing lunatics.

…………

What you seem to gleen over is...

....what Bush is doing is survielling those that would do us harm, yes, the evil doers, if you're not doing evil, you're in the clear.

Worked pretty well since 9/11 to huh?

Sarah Palin on the other hand is a citizen, one of the good guys, and her privacy WAS invaded.

Simple..but here it is special just for you...nice and slow now....here we go...

The right - catches bad guys and uses evidence in court or intelligence to bust THE BAD GUYS!

The left - invades citizens privacy, posts their SS# and personal email information on the internet and CRY'S FOUL about the indignant response outpouring from the American people?

Amazing!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Of course.

Because it's not like Bush has lied to us befo-

oh.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Correct. Prove that he lied.

No don't, I don't feel like spending the whole week proving different.

But I know where you're coming from. Are you one of those people that used to say Bush invaded Iraq for the oil....boy that's worked out well hasn't it.

How bout 9/11 itself...was that Bush too Tlaloc?

We know the economy and housing crisis is all his fault to of course?

ANyway, we get it...it's all Bush!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Prove it? Sure.

Yet, at a press conference October 4, Bush was asked: "Of all the people in the United States you had to choose from, is Harriet Miers the most qualified to serve on the Supreme Court?" He said: "Yes. Otherwise I wouldn't have put her on."

Source (You'll like it, it's from Human Events)

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Huh?

Are you one of those people that used to say Bush invaded Iraq for the oil....boy that's worked out well hasn't it.

Are you trying to convince anyone that the oil companies haven't been making record profits since Iraqi oil spigot got crimped? Why don't you try to explain to me real slow how Exxon, for example, has been losing money.

Sic semper tyrannis

………… parent

The Iraqi's are doing just fine, and it's only...

...getting better.

Really I don't want to go around about that AGAIN today...

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

And

what's the price of tea in China?

Sic semper tyrannis

………… parent

What? The Iraqi's are doing just fine, and it's only...

...getting better for them.

Record profits were a result of recent speculation by and large, and we are talking about the price of oil and profits over the course of the war, your allegation doesn't hold up.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Sure it does

There's plenty of evidence to suggest it - you just chose to ignore it. And by strange coincidence price of oil and oil companies shares have been on a steady climb since the war started.

Sic semper tyrannis

………… parent

Prices have risen gradually...

with little anomaly since before the war, throughout the start of the war, and up until last year when speculation in the markets claimed oil no one ever took delivery of, but made crude look short, so prices rose sharply. Besides world events affecting a temporary spike here and there, that's it.

The Iraqis are selling oil like crazy , gas is still high...

Anyway you postulation is flawed.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Looks

Sic semper tyrannis

………… parent

They haven't been profiting from

the Iraqi oil fields.

China looks to be the first to cash in:

Iraq and China signed a $3 billion deal this week to develop a large Iraqi oil field, the first major commercial oil contract here with a foreign company since the 2003 U.S.-led invasion.

[...] Jihad said the technical service contracts, which were to be finalized June 30, have been delayed as negotiations continue with the Western concerns, including Shell, BP and Exxon Mobil.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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They've certainly profitted

from the disruption to the flow of Iraqi oil spiking the price.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Has to be true to some extent, agree,

but looks like most of the increase in price has come recently , at the same time that Iraqi output is up , back to pre-war levels. Demand has certainly increased since 2003 so there's still a net decrease but compared to the total world market for oil it's small.

Arguably instability (or the perception thereof) had a much larger impact on oil prices than the actual disruption to supply, though.

Anyway, I like this nuanced twist on the "no war for oil" argument =) Maybe we can copyright the "no war for less oil" slogan?

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Slogan...or Myth... You just proved it is a non-truth..

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

They have an 80 Billion dollar surplus...

...that didn't come from selling view lots... ;-)

Iraq is raking in more money from oil exports than it is spending, amassing a projected four-year budget surplus of up to $80 billion, U.S. auditors reported Tuesday.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Two things

First, the 4th amendment in my copy of the Constitution reads:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

It does not say:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized unless you're an evildoer or are otherwise a bad person in which case none of this applies to you.

If you dislike the 4th amendment, you are free to try to amend it. While you're amending the Constitution, please watch The Simpsons .

Second, the group who broke into Sarah Palin's email account are not of any political stripe. Anonymous is interested in nothing but seeing their names in the paper. This wasn't politically motivated. It was more along the lines of a few nerds in their mothers' basements trying to get some cred.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

Nice

This is how you mock, people. In an article about Sarah Palin's (probably illicit) Yahoo account getting hacked, the CS monitor sticks this shiv in our beloved leader:

Translation? If the feds were to contact an individual named Gabriel Ramuglia they might be able to track down the, as President Bush and Aquaman would say, “evil-doers.”

Story

Not only does it point out the fundamental cartoonishness of Bush's rhetoric but it also compares him to a superhero who is widely and roundly mocked as impotent and dumb. Coming out of the blue makes it all the more effective.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Little Miss can't be Wrong

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

…………

Hagel says Palin is not ready to lead

GOP senator cites lack of foreign-policy chops.

How obnoxious can they get when Obama has exactly the same "foreign-policy chops" as Palin? Shameless.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Exactly the same?

It would be nice if there were any evidence whatsoever that Palin was even interested in foreign policy before she was picked to be VP.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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oh, so now that is the differentiation?

Because of course you know Obama so well, you know that his surmised deep interest in Foreign Policy automatically makes him an expert in the field.

As far as we all know, they were the same and his running for president and expressing opinions on FP since that time, changed nothing.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Interest ≠ Expertise

That's true. But I would say that a non-interest in Foreign Policy does automatically make one a non-expert.

Now, I don't know that Palin has a lack of interest, but as far as I can tell, she made no public statements regarding foreign policy whatsoever, before being picked as VP (except the one where she heard about the Surge on the news).

Obama has publicly shown an interest in Foreign Policy for years. I'm not seeing he's an expert (nor am I saying that he is not), but he at least has the minimum prerequisite of possible expertise, which I don't believe is true for Palin.

And again, whether you think that is important or not is up to you. But I think it is simply ludicrous to suggest that "Obama has exactly the same 'foreign-policy chops' as Palin."

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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dude

Obama was running for President. Of course he needed to make statements on FP whether he was interested or not! Palin was not running for VP - what would be the purpose for Gov of Alaska to make any FP public statements whatsoever???

You are comparing apples and oranges. And Obama's FP interest while running for Prez means nothing and does not equal *any* "foreign-policy chops".

Why are we using running for president as any kind of qualifying experience - next thing you'll say that he has executive experience because he's been very interested in it.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

Yep.

You are comparing apples and oranges.

I agree with that, which is exactly why it is ludicrous to compare Obama and Palin foreign policy credentials.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

even though Obam's foreign policy expertise is...

...in all honestly very little better than yours.

Palin would be in the same category.

They are expanding that gap as they are privy to intelligence etc. now, but 1 year ago you or I could of had a equitable convo re; FP with either of them.

She is running for VP, I would suggest she probably has a great interest in FP right about now.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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If anything he's gaffed every foreign policy event he's...

...address during the course of the election!

Surge-wrong!
Withdraw from Iraq by March 2008-wrong!
Blowing kisses to the Russians-wrong!

He is being held to a comparison to McCain, not Palin anyway...but it is funny he has a weaker resume' than anyone else in the race as a whole, including SP!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

C'mon, you can do better. Let's get it straight.

Invading Iraq wasn't justified & was wrong.
Invading Russia because of S. Ossetia or Georgia would be wrong.

Barack Obama has a SIGNIFICANTLY better resume than Palin.

If you thought for yourself, talking to you would be a pleasant thing. But you only bring the rehashed republican talking points that are usually pretty poor.

………… parent

Kindness...wake up....your sleep posting... LOL!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

The same......

?????

please, stop pushing tall tales.

Obama's grasp of foreign policy is and has been one of the keys to his popularity.

Palin's grasp of foreign policy is much more limited apparently by her vision and which countries she can see.

Besides why are you trashing a war hero like Chuck Hagel anyway.

He served his country honorably, and you are calling him obnoxious. That's shameless trashing of a troop who served. Why do you hate America? :-l

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Obama's grasp? LOL!

Obama has no grasp of FP!

His recycling of a withdrawal in 16 months made him popular with anti-war crowd ...till he let it slip that he's just moving all the hummer's over to Afghanistan, there went his popularity on that issue, and hardly qualifies as having "a grasp"!

And if the is any exchange of semen in the WH during an BO administration, the DNA evidence will surely be found on one of Chuck Hagel's ties!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

You are a disgusting pig.

"And if the is any exchange of semen in the WH during an BO administration, the DNA evidence will surely be found on one of Chuck Hagel's ties!"

Christ, you are a little freeper.

………… parent

C'mon guys

This is Swords Crossed - 'Pink-your-Doublet' and 'Slit-your-Trunk' - don't trade insults...

Sic semper tyrannis

………… parent

That sounds awfully naughty, Woodsman.

'Pink-your-Doublet' and 'Slit-your-Trunk'

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Cyrano de Bergerac :)

The bold Cadets of Gascony,
Of Carbon of Castel-Jaloux!
Brawling and swaggering boastfully,
The bold Cadets of Gascony!
Spouting of Armory, Heraldry,
Their veins a-brimming with blood so blue,
The bold Cadets of Gascony,
Of Carbon of Castel-Jaloux:
Eagle-eye, and spindle-shanks,
Fierce mustache, and wolfish tooth!
Slash-the-rabble and scatter-their-ranks;
Eagle-eye and spindle-shanks,
With a flaming feather that gayly pranks,
Hiding the holes in their hats, forsooth!
Eagle-eye and spindle-shanks,
Fierce mustache, and wolfish tooth!
'Pink-your-Doublet' and 'Slit-your-Trunk'
Are their gentlest sobriquets;
With Fame and Glory their soul is drunk!
'Pink-your-Doublet' and 'Slit-your-Trunk,'
In brawl and skirmish they show their spunk,
Give rendezvous in broil and fray;
'Pink-your-Doublet' and 'Slit-your-Trunk'
Are their gentlest sobriquets!
What, ho! Cadets of Gascony!
All jealous lovers are sport for you!
O Woman! dear divinity!
What, ho! Cadets of Gascony!
Whom scowling husbands quake to see.
Blow, 'taratara,' and cry 'Cuckoo.'
What, ho! Cadets of Gascony!
Husbands and lovers are game for you!

Sic semper tyrannis

………… parent

The only words I was worried about were

Nah, I'm not gonna say.

I'm a contributor now. I have a reputation to maintain!

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

Alaska may be interesting this time round

For those who don't know, Alaska has had a big split in its republican party. Palin is one of the new faction that has tried to sweep out the old hands. She succeeded in gaining the governorship, but her contemporaries haven't fared so well. Both Don Young (rep) and Ted Stevens (senator) have won their primary fights and will be on the ballot this November. They are most definitely old guard. Palin is unlikely to help them campaign, even if she had time during a presidential campaign, because of the aforementioned split. Additionally both Young and Stevens are targets of a big FBI investigation that is quite likely to take Stevens down and reasonably likely to take out Young. Stevens has in fact already been indicted.

That makes it quite possible that Alaska will have a dem Senator and Representative (the other senator is a republican, not up for election this year). Alaska hasn't had a democrat senator since 1980.

At the same time the old guard republicans in the Alaska state senate are gunning for Palin, and hence cooperating with democrats in the troopergate scandal.

All in all Alaska has suddenly become a very interesting political spectacle this year.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

…………

A little wager...?

Both will be RED!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Based on...

Here's the state of the polling for Stevens. Here's the same for Young.

I'm not saying it is a sure thing these seats will flip. I'm saying there's a decent chance. I think both a qualitative and quantitative analysis bears that out.

So do you have any data or perspective to support a counter-argument?

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

No, just my political intuition...Thats why I said a wager...;-)

I think it it Palin Mania there right now, before she was picked as VP her approval rating was 85%.

The Republican dissenters are in a small minority.

I think Republicans will sweep the State.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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But you're ignoring

that both Stevens and Young just fought primaries against Palin allies. So in the first place they are not well positioned to benefit from "Palin mania" and in the second place obviously the dissenters (a term that really applies more to Palin's bunch since they split from the old guard reps) are not a tiny facton- they include the current senator and representative, as well as the head of the state senate, and they were successful in their primaries.

Palin does seem pretty popular, and I think it is very likely that McCain gets Ak's electoral votes. Young and Stevens are a very different matter. Even assuming no more FBI investigation news comes down Young is probably toast and Stevens has about a 50-50.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Don't you know polls only count when they agree with him?

………… parent

(From back of the room-a high pitched-skeechy-liberal schrill)

..."Don't you know polls only count when they agree with him"!

I asked him if he would care to wager as I felt otherwise...DESPITE the poll.

Ok with you?

Or here maybe this helps...

(From back of the room-a high pitched-skeechy-liberal schrill)

...Ok with you?

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Shameful joy

I have to admit a certain sense of amusement that Redstate not only took money from their parent company (Eagle Publishing) but also held a big beg-for-cash even in order to get their RS 3.0 up and running and the things is a total POS that works about 1/10 as well as the free software SC is based off.

I just find that funny. Particularly when the software won't work worth a damn during the run up to a major election.

It's kind of like a microcosm of the republican party for the last decade- expensive, incompetent, self defeating.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

…………

I agree (minus the joy)

Their software is a POS. I don't know what they paid for but it is horrid.

Also I believe we will be rolling out a new version of SC - hosted on a hopefully faster service sometime in the next 2-4 weeks, in time for the election. Which should hopefully be 20 times better than the RS software :)

RS made a mistake - for the kind of money they spent, I would've custom programmed this free software to give them something a LOT better than what they have.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

Almost makes you wonder

where the money went, huh? Just their beg-a-thon was trying to scare up 25 grand. I have no idea how much Eagle gave them. Did they get taken, or did a good part of the money for the upgrade end up in their pockets?

Don't know.

It's kind of sad but kind of funny, in the same way that the fact that the National Review (champion of free market ideology) has never broken even, much less made a profit, is funny. People who espouse a standard by which they themselves are losers crack me up :)

PS you can see the much mocked original bleg here if you are so inclined.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Meh

Having one's bloviatons replicated hundreds of thousands of times on glossy color stock and having said bloviations shipped to an audience around the world is worth a lot to hardcore ideologues.  That's why you can't just look at the bottom-line finances of a labor-of-love enterprise like the National Review and say 'aha! These free-market demagogues can't even run a profitable business!' because perhaps they could make it a profitable business but are unwilling to abandon core principles that would be needed to be abandon in order to make a magazine that would appeal to a wider audience.

………… parent

I understand why they do it

but the fact that they do it is a repudiation of everything they claim to believe.

They profess an adherence to a "marketplace of ideas" where ideas of merit elevate naturally and yet they rely on welfare to get their own message out.

It tells you something.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

The National Review gets government aid?

NT.

………… parent

No

not government welfare but they rely upon the charity of others (while decrying that anyone else should get the same).

Yeah, I know the official line is that conservatives are fine with charity, except that that's not how businesses are supposed to operate. In fact charity is one of those dreaded "market distorting forces."

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Well...

There's no doubt why they don't like free software/open source offerings.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

That's funny

but not as funny as the guy writing code on an emac LMAO.

Sic semper tyrannis

………… parent

hehehe n/t

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

LOL. -nt.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Israel picks Tzipi Livni

"Israel's Foreign Minister, Tzipi Livni, has narrowly won the ruling Kadima party's primary for a new leader.

Livni, a former Mossad agent, is Israel's lead negotiator in peace talks with the Palestinians and has taken a concilliatory approach in negotiations. She has also stressed negotiation with Iran and it has been reported that she doesn't believe the "existential threat" nonsense bandied about by hardliners."

She isn't a push over. She was originally elected to the Knesset as a Likud party member.

Let's all hope she helps bring peace. It won't be easy but better than if Netenyahu was still throwing bombs at everyone.

…………

Sounds promising all around (nt)

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

………… parent

Cool!

………… parent

Palin is now stealing Obama's idea's in stump speeches

" Sarah Palin likes to tell voters around the country about how she "put the government checkbook online" in Alaska. On Thursday, Palin suggested she would take that same proposal to Washington.

"We're going to do a few new things also," she said at a rally in Cedar Rapids. "For instance, as Alaska's governor, I put the government's checkbook online so that people can see where their money's going. We'll bring that kind of transparency, that responsibility, and accountability back. We're going to bring that back to D.C."

What a good idea. Why didn't someone think of that before?

Oh wait, someone did. His name is Barack Obama.

In 2006 and 2007, Obama teamed up with Republican Sen. Tom Coburn to pass the Federal Funding Accountability and Transparency Act, also known as "Google for Government." The act created a free, searchable web site -- USASpending.gov -- that discloses to the public all federal grants, contracts, loans and insurance payments.

In June of this year, Obama and Coburn introduced new Senate legislation to expand the information available online to include details on earmarks, competitive bidding, criminal activities, audit disputes and other government information.

According to Sarah Palin, one of Obama's ideas from 2006 qualifies as one of the "new things" she'll do in 2009."

Sarah is quick, I'll give her that. I hadn't realized she had such sticky fingers as well.

…………

Brendan

you might want to add the discussion about the constitution and interpretation starting roughly here to the open thread discussions.

Of course that may be immodest of me since it's principly me and John Mark mucking about. Still I thin it's an interesting discussion with useful contrasting debate points.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

…………

Good idea!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Second RW, good idea

but perhaps you'd prefer to add it yourself, so you can describe it however seems best.

(Otherwise I will do so tomorrow.)

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

………… parent

Bailout Blues

CNN .

…………

Moderately funny

Apparently the daring raid of Governor Palin's (probably illicit) email account was accomplished by guessing the answer to her "I forgot my password" question. In case you are wondering the answer was apparently her high school.

I totally think she should be in control of launch codes.

Totes.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

…………

Action-reaction pairing

Russia defied the United States yesterday by announcing plans to sell military hardware to Iran and Venezuela.

The head of Russia’s state arms exporter said that he was negotiating to sell antiaircraft systems to Iran despite American objections. Russia has already delivered 29 Tor-M1 missile systems under a $700 million (£386 million) deal with Iran in 2005.

“Contacts between our countries are continuing and we do not see any reason to suspend them,” Anatoli Isaikin, the general director of Rosoboronexport, told the RIA-Novosti news agency at an arms fair in South Africa.

Reports have circulated for some time that the Kremlin is preparing to sell its S-300 surface-to-air missile system to Iran, offering greater protection against a possible US or Israeli attack on the Islamic republic’s nuclear facilities. The missiles have a range of more than 90 miles (150km).

story

edit- apparently wonkette has dubbed Palin Bible Spice. That's also kinda funny.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

…………

Sabre rattling begets more sabre rattling

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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I wonder why my link failed.

ah well. Thanks for the working one.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Oracle?

Your link is missing the ".ece" at the end

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

ABC: Obama Lying/Race-Baiting in Two Languages

This one just takes the cake!

The greater implication the ad makes, however, is that McCain is no friend to Latinos at all, beyond issues of funding the DREAM act or how NCLB money is distributed. By linking McCain to Limbaugh’s quotes, twisting Limbaugh’s quotes, and tying McCain to more extremist anti-immigration voices, the Obama campaign has crossed a line into misleading the viewers of its new TV ad. In Spanish, the word is erróneo.

 

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

…………

Not.

McCain was unable to stand up to the populist anti-immigrant rant brought on by his own party, of which Limbaugh was one of the biggest cheerleaders.

Remember how funny that song was Rush used to sing...... Barack the magic negro?

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Really - Do you read the links - Or just spew forth...

As first reported by the Washington Post, Obama's ad features a narrator saying: "They want us to forget the insults we’ve put up with…the intolerance…they made us feel marginalized in this country we love so much."

The screen then shows these two quotes from Limbaugh:

“…stupid and unskilled Mexicans”
—Rush Limbaugh

"You shut your mouth or you get out!”
—Rush Limbaugh

There are some real factual problems with this ad, which is titled “Dos Caras,” or two faces.

I’m not going to defend how he said it, but to act as if this was just a moment of Limbaugh slurring Mexicans is not accurate.

The second quote is totally unfair. In 2006, Limbaugh was mocking Mexican law.

But even if one is uninclined to see Limbaugh's quotes as having been taken unfairly out of context, linking them to McCain makes as much sense as running a quote from Bill Maher and linking it to Obama.

The greater implication the ad makes, however, is that McCain is no friend to Latinos at all, beyond issues of funding the DREAM act or how NCLB money is distributed. By linking McCain to Limbaugh’s quotes, twisting Limbaugh’s quotes, and tying McCain to more extremist anti-immigration voices, the Obama campaign has crossed a line into misleading the viewers of its new TV ad. In Spanish, the word is erróneo.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Just a sec

If McCain was a friend of Latino's he wouldn't have caved to the 'we hate mexicans' immigrant bashing rhetoric of his party. He obviously stood more with the Bush/Kennedy position of being more lenient with immigrants. He caved to the populist outrage of his party.

Limbaugh was saying Mexicans say it to their own, we here in the US should too.

Everyone knows Limbaugh is the vaunted Republican mouthpiece. McCain is a Republican isn't he?

With all the quasi-fake-guilt by association you lay at Obama's feet, sorry dude, I got no sympathy for your whining.

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I confess. I don't read his links any more.

But to be fair, he doesn't read most of mine either.

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I bet you are one of those people that just walk around...

...the house just talking to hear themselves talk?

I read your links, but I suppose I could stop that?

Why would you respond to something you don't know what is being said? I guess when you are as single minded as you it doesn't really matter, the one answer fits all mentality.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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You continue to make me tremble with astonishment...

...in light of your benighted responses.

I am sorry to inform you that like most Americans, as well as what common sense dictates, the security of our borders, and the protection of our sovereignty, does not a "Mexican Hater" make.

I assure you one thing, when some idiot walks a dirty nuke, or chemical weapon over the border, and a tragedy happens, it will be you and people just like you bitch'in the loudest that we knew it was a possibility and didn't do snot about it.

And fuck what you think anyway, it it incumbent upon the Federal Government to protect the American citizenry, whether you think that is racist or not!

Such a ignorant concept, border security = racism. That is the kind of thinking that makes us the laughing stock of the rest of the world. When the Russians said they would take us apart from the inside out, they never knew they wouldn't have too, at least not with people like you around!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Hey. Please don't type out fu*k, OK?

I'm not asking you to have any grace at all or to act intelligent.

But obey the rules. The rules say we don't curse (much) and we certainly don't drop the f bomb.

I was just being honest in that post. Sorry to offend you.

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Yeah Ted Kennedy

had the right idea.

Too bad you and John McCain, or couldn't get your party to do the right thing.

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Kennedy, Feingold, and Leiberman were all rubbage!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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You mean McCain's pals

Why are you trashing his good friends, from across the aisle.

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Here again, why is everything so whacky with you?

I am not "trashing them", I think Joe Leiberman is a great man and fine legislator, Ted Kennedy, though I don't agree with him politically is a national treasure really, but I totally reject the pieces of legislation they passed together with JM!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

me whacky

you just called them rubbage (whatever that means)

read some of your own posts if you want to see whacky rantings.

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‘Guilty Liberal Consciences’ Forced Banks To Make Bad Loans

Larry Kudlow blames Congress and low income families for housing crisis Those bastards!

" Kudlow: It’s time for the Congress, Republicans and Democrats to stop encouraging—exhorting and forcing banks to make low income loans with no documentation. Stop that—literally pushed these lenders to make low income loans

Scarborough: Hold on a second. You cannot blame this on low income people that are getting a house.

Kudlow: I’m not blaming them. Kudlow: Sub prime, sub standard loans were a creature of the US Congress in the 90’s and the 2000’s.

Scarborough: Are you saying that poor people have caused this crisis?

Kudlow: Not poor people. Members of Congress who were rich people. But their Liberal guilt consciences forced banks and lenders to make lousy sub-standard loans and that has to be repealed…not everybody can afford a home, Joe. Some people have to rent.”

What has happened to NBC? Do they think they can become Fox too? Joe Scarborough thankfully told Kudrow he was full of poo.

…………

Kindness...You're actually starting to close in on the...

...real fu*king problems. ;-)

Keep looking, the answers are right here at SC.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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The $$$ crises is getting scary

Mike Rosen a local radio host followed Kudlow's lead, claiming it was social engineering by democrats. oh sigh. Kind of like how democrats socially engineered integration, you know treating black people like other than animals.

I guess there is amnesia for Bush's cries of the glorious 'ownership' society.

Right now I don't think folks have a clue as to the extreme, severe financial crises that America is facing.

It's actually a little scary, frankly.

The Financial Times says we could need a $1,000bn bailout = *super depressing*

There is some question about money market funds potentially being backed by new and *necessary* federal insurance. The amount of risk to cover is said to be a trillion dollars. Good Lord. Maybe we better all start praying.

I am dying to know who pressed the US to pay their debts now, or which bank refused to do overnight lending with Lehman, and what is really behind this fueding between banks internationally that they don't trust each other with overnight loans. (apparently the grease that makes the world economy turn)

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The truth is a little more interesting

see here :

Far from stabilizing the financial system, the federal bailout barrage appears to have left investors shell-shocked.

Henry Paulson, the Treasury secretary who along with Fed chief Ben Bernanke has headed up efforts to contain the financial sector's problems, has indicated he will act as necessary to restore confidence.

But so far, that's not happening - and some market watchers are warning that rescues such as Tuesday's emergency loan to AIG (AIG, Fortune 500) are actually making it harder for financial firms to raise the money they need to muddle through the credit crunch.

That worry has in turn only created further instability, feeding massive selloffs like the ones Wednesday on Morgan Stanley (MS, Fortune 500) and Paulson's alma mater, Goldman Sachs (GS, Fortune 500), Wall Street's two remaining independent investment banks. Morgan fell as much as 38% to a 52-week low and Goldman slid 25%, dropping below $100 a share for the first time in three years.

Freakonomics Blog has an excellent round up on the WHOLE thing.

Here's part on Lehman:

Why did the financing dry up? For months, short-sellers were convinced that Lehman’s real-estate losses were bigger than it had acknowledged. As more bad news about the real estate market emerged, including the losses at Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, this view spread.

Lehman’s costs of borrowing rose and its share price fell. With an impending downgrade to its credit rating looming, legal restrictions were going to prevent certain firms from continuing to lend to Lehman.

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It is that

but it is also that other banks were asking Lehman to pay up on some of their debts. It is the lack of trust between banks ( due to the wildly creative investments vehicles, or black holes of debt as capital) because they weren't honoring their committments somehow.

Because I am a nerd, this whole mess reeks of international intrigue. There is something going on behind the scenes that we don't know. (yes my tin foil hat is a snug fit tonight).

Why won't banks lend to each other overnight? It's like the Hatfields and the McCoys fued.

There is more to this story than meets the eye. It's bad enough all the stuff you mentioned above. There were lawsuits to collect debt and international mistrust because of lack of ability to pay (liquidity).

………… parent

Keep reading

And you'll answer your own questions.

BTW, I don't where tin foil on this stuff. ;)

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Point of order

evasive!

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evasive?

No. What am I evading? Am I missing something?

I just pointed out that the comments you made were answered in those links.

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Oy! Oy! Oy! Lehman was sued by, wait for it

Bank Leumi

Leumi claims that last Friday, it ordered Lehman Brothers to sell stocks it was invested in, but the order was not carries out in full, and the fund which were supposed to be derived from it were never wired to it in full.

The bank asked the court to seize several of Lehman Brothers assets in Israel, to secure restitution of the funds.

What in the world.

This is bizarre. Not sure how true it is, but that is the claim Leumi bank is making.

Is this what started the ball rolling for the Lehman collapse?

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Domestically Bush is a dingbat on many issues...

...and that was stupid to say, but he, McCain and republicans were trying to tell Congress and anyone who would listen fannie and freddie were jacked as far back as in '03 and '05.

But the truth is, it was a democratic thing, ever since Clinton they had whored out the two lenders and drained it of millions and millions and millions of dollars for dem favorites who scored jobs there as rewards for whatever, and then they fought to expand lending practices to as you said "Integrate" low income, and those who could not afford to repay the loans.

Equality Miss L means everyone has a chance at the pie, it does not mean everyone gets some if they do not do for themselves what others have done to achieve.

Anyway you do the homework and see for yourself.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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I agree

that some democrats had a part to play here. I especially see Clinton (Bill) and some of his advisers as being all to eager to play along, and being extremely weak for taking 'infallible' Greenspan's advice.

This is about hedge funds, and a lack of regulation and I am positive that Democrats and Republicans were enriched by these schemes.

It wasn't giving loans to the poor that caused the problem, however. It was greedy people wanting to make money off the poor that was the problem.

The atmosphere of we are making so much money we will all just look the other way was pervasive.

It was an anything goes, regulations be damned atmosphere.

This so serious, however, I think it is time for the games to end. Though I will say that the drumbeat of republicans has always been the Reagan mantra of deregulate. This mess is the final result, which I hope is the end of this miserable era of government is always bad, until the rich need bailed out.

The Bush era economy has been based around gorging on debt and credit.

And it started with Neil and his Silverado Savings and Loan crises. I guess it runs in the family.

………… parent

??

It wasn't giving loans to the poor that caused the problem, however. It was greedy people wanting to make money off the poor that was the problem.

I know it sounds nice and feels good to say things like this but it's simply not true and makes no sense.

How are lenders supposed to make loans to the poor then? They weren't doing it in large enough quantities so Congress intervened with government programs to make more housing available for mortgages for lower income buyers.

How exactly was it supposed to work then? You can't just turn the whole credit/risk system upside down to get more people into houses. Loans are risk. You can't change that no matter how the regulations were redone to get more financing for these people.

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Of course loans are a risk

And they are supposedly insured risk (see AIG, and Moody's credit ratings).

The lenders that asked for no money down, and no proof of income while offering home loans to the poor were greedy. I am pretty sure that fits the description of greedy people wanting to make money off the poor.

The ratings agencies looked the other way, and didn't bother to verify any information contained on the loan applications. Greedy people wanting to make money off the poor.

The creative genious bundled the loans from the poor together and sold them as capital. Greedy people trying to make money off the poor.

The best way for lenders to make loans to the poor, is to verify the income, to not slip walloping arm rates into the contract, and to not sell them houses that they knew they couldn't afford.

It's known as predatory lending. And the good news for the predators was you didn't even have to be accredited. They could sell the loans and walk away.

No it doesn't sound nice John. And it doesn't feel good to say these things. It's disgusting that this happened.

I am pretty damn mad about it. You might recall I have been harping on this for quite a while.

Lucky for me no one listened to what I had to say, so now the collective we get to bail out all these crooks to the tune of billions and billions in future tax dollars. Our country will be drastically weakened by this gluttony that was allowed to go on to the point crises.

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You had all the answers

The beauty of hindsight coulda woulda shoulda.

For my part, I'd been muttering to my GF for about 3 years that interest were too low, that this made no sense and that something was hot the fan...not sure how, not sure exactly when and not sure exactly to what magnitude.

I'm mad about it too. The difference is that I was grumbling before anything went wrong.

………… parent

Hey-Nice answer-working with John is rubbing off on ya! ;-)

But you are a little off the mark.

"It was greedy people wanting to make money off the poor that was the problem."

According to your 'Greed" model, we could simply stop the windfalls for the executives and the problem would be rectified.

"It wasn't giving loans to the poor that caused the problem, however."

These are exactly the people causing the problem. It is not the 10's of millions the officers of these companies made, it is the mortgages being defaulted on that are causing this.

Ok, now tell me, who were these greedy politicians who did this, who forced them to de-regulate?

I'll give you a hint, keep following the money.

 

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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That's shallow

and you are way way off the mark.

Just explain to me rationally how a 2% default rate on sub-prime loans could cause a global financial meltdown. It can't.

The problem was Enron style accounting once the credit debt was in the hands of brilliant investment bankers. Dude they don't even know who they sold this bad paper to. And it was pervasive throughtout the whole entire investment system that gorged itself on any kind of credit that it could repackage and resell. Everyone was making money like mad, until someone asked to see the books.

………… parent

you mean...

...until housing prices started slipping.

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No that is not what I mean

This high risk method and system of creative financing was wholly unsustainable. It is the method of assessing risk and the arrogant hubris involved that created the bubble and poor people's inability to pay in a bad economy that lowered prices.

(This reminds me of the hubris involved in occupying Iraq and calling it freedom while putting the bill off budget.)

If prices would have continued to rise........ without rising wages, well we will let the income gap speak for itself.

If a loaf of bread costs a thousand dollars, should we use it as capital to trade on the market? Should we offer credit so people can afford the American Dream, a loaf of bread. Yeah yeah yeah it's a process.

This is just ridiculous and way out of control.

The Masters of the Universe, Wall Street Financiers caused this problem with their hubris, and their free market rhetoric...... there should be no rules.... and their marketing schemes to sell the most credit ever..... and now the tax payers have to bail them out.

The I hate big government, I hate regulations, capitalists come begging to government for a hand out. Whaaaaa....... our money market funds are slipping!

The real cause of this bailout is foreign pressure to pay up debts because the US banking system had basically been sanctioned. No one wanted to do business with us.

Is there a newly unelected world leader, Hank Paulson, ex-CEO of Goldman Sachs that is saving the world with US Tax dollars?

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Miss L, Real estate

Miss L, Real estate foreclosures in the U.S. were up 75 percent in 2007. The overall rate in the U.S. was 10.3 per 1,000 households. Eight states ended the year with foreclosure rates of more than 15 per 1,000 households.

That's devastating! Look around, there are places in California where the whole neighborhood is empty, all foreclosed.

Anyway let me go back to where we were.

Does the name Franklin Raines mean anything to you? It probably should.

 

Top Recipients of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac
Campaign Contributions, 1989-2008

Name

Office

Party/State

Total

1. Dodd, Christopher J

S

D-CT

$133,900

2. Kerry, John

S

D-MA

$111,000

3. Obama, Barack

S

D-IL

$105,849

4. Clinton, Hillary

S

D-NY

$75,550

5. Kanjorski, Paul E

H

D-PA

$65,500

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Get over yourself

And were all these stats from low income folks......? Or was it speculators. Was it people using equity on their home by refinancing to make up for stagnent wages?

Blaming this era of lack of regulation and lawless cowboy financing wholly on democrats is absolutely ridiculous.

Your guilt by association mantra..... goes on and on and on.

This is another flat-out lie from a dishonorable campaign that is increasingly incapable of telling the truth. Frank Raines has never advised Senator Obama about anything -- ever. And by the way, someone whose campaign manager and top advisor worked and lobbied for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac shouldn't be throwing stones from his seven glass houses ~ Team Obama

The Fed Bailout rescue of Wall Street is to prevent people from making a run on the banks, and that includes foreign investors to avoid the collapse of the US economy.

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Jumping in

What all these problems have in common is that they are the effects of a common cause. America has been living beyond its means for far too long. This goes for both the American consumer and the government.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

Oh so true

The American Dream . (This is not meant as an endorsement of LendingTree.com, but it is a funny commercial!)

Edit: heck, I might as well just embed the sucker:

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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I see your bet and raise you

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

Agreed

Materialism and greed are the American legacy.

Further decisive action is needed says Hank.

By legislative fiat the stock market will not be allowed to go down.

Apparently it would be the end of western civilization if we don't rescue Wall Streets addiction to credit.

What message are we sending to the world. We can't have socialized health care but we can have a socialized Dow Jones Industrial Average.

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It could work

Mugabe declared inflation illegal in Zimbabwe.

I made the case in slashdot that the government will prop up the stock market at any cost precisely because so many people have so much of their retirement invested in it via 401(k) and IRA plans. Unfortunately, you can only prop up things for so long until they come crashing down with an even greater magnitude.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

Yes it could

Basically it has too. In spite of my outrage, I see that absolutely something has to be done. I am still furious that we have to bail out investment bankers for the sake of 'the greater good'.

The most important thing is to blink often take time to assess the situation carefully, and understand that whatever actions are taken to mend this situation will have consequences.

This is no time to be playing childish partisan games. Right, like that's gonna happen.

The no short rules are putting the new up and coming ever so trendy hedgefunders in a tizzy.

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Fannie, Freddie, Franklin, & Barack...

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Another Lie

Carly Fiorina's e-mail trail

Raines is not an Obama adviser and that McCain's campaign knows it because Raines said so in an e-mail earlier this week to Carly Fiorina, a top McCain adviser. Obama's campaign provided The Associated Press with a copy of the e-mail.

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LOL!!!!!!!

Let me see what you just said... ;-)

1 Raines in not an Obama adviser.

2 McCain's campaign knows it because Raines said so in an e-mail earlier this week to Carly Fiorina, a top McCain adviser.

3 But then the Obama campaign provided AP a copy of the email.

Doesn't it then follow that Raines advised the Obama campaign as to the existence of the email, and in fact in all likelihood provided them with the information. LOL!

A Question for Franklin Raines 



Were you lying to the Washington Post in April when you told reporter Anita Huslin that you had, "taken calls from Barack Obama's presidential campaign seeking his advice on mortgage and housing policy matters" or are you and Senator Obama lying now?

An Obama spokesman called the ad's contention "a flat-out lie," saying Raines has "never advised Senator Obama about anything, ever." But Raines did not claim to have advised the Illinois senator personally. In an accompanying statement, now Raines says he never "provided his campaign with advice on housing or economic matters." That contradicts what he told Huslin five months ago.


As for how Senator McCain sees it, over in the Corner is the text of his economic speech from Wisconsin this morning. An excerpt:

Two years ago, I called for reform of this corruption at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Congress did nothing. The Administration did nothing. Senator Obama did nothing, and actually profited from this system of abuse and scandal. While Fannie and Freddie were working to keep Congress away from their house of cards, Senator Obama was taking their money. He got more, in fact, than any other member of Congress, except for the Democratic chairmen of the committee that oversees them. And while Fannie Mae was betraying the public trust, somehow its former CEO had managed to gain my opponent's trust to the point that Senator Obama actually put him in charge of his vice presidential search.

This CEO, Mr. Johnson, walked off with tens of millions of dollars in salary and bonuses for services rendered to Fannie Mae, even after authorities discovered accounting improprieties that padded his compensation. Another CEO for Fannie Mae, Mr. Raines, has been advising Senator Obama on housing policy. This even after Fannie Mae was found to have committed quote "extensive financial fraud" under his leadership. Like Mr. Johnson, Mr. Raines walked away with tens of millions of dollars.

Senator Obama may be taking their advice and he may be taking their money, but in a McCain-Palin administration, there will be no seat for these people at the policy-making table. They won't even get past the front gate at the White House.

This is good news as it shows that McCain isn't going to let the MSM and Obama call him a liar when he is, in fact, telling the truth.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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I see you like fairy tales

And you source is........? World Net Daily? The Horowitz Times?

Mr. Raines was not a part of Obama's campaign period. That is a lie which has become more and more common with the McCain campaign.

Mr. Johnson was tasked with vetting the VP pick, and was eventually one of the many that Obama threw under the bus for obvious reasons.

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Fairytales, is that what they're printing in the WaPo now days..

..I guess I have seen my share of crap in the Washington post. But the reporter quotes him directly 5 months ago in print. So someones lying here Missy, but it's not John McCain.

...And I'm glad to see you admit the latter, that's refreshing.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Cause if it's

written in the newspaper it's never wrong.

The WaPo is planning on running a correction soon.

………… parent

Link the correction comment.

Either he said it and he is now lying to spare BO political embarrassment, or the reporter thought this all up 5 months ago.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Facts are stubborn things

Here's a nice and concise timeline of the mortgage crisis.

Where Credit Is Due

Sic semper tyrannis

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If that was a financial instument - It'd be a junk bond.

Probably a good one for D/Kos...

Selective inclusion, intentional omissions, slanted, and just a feel good piece of TP for those democrats who can't stand the truth.

-5

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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What was

omitted?

Sic semper tyrannis

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Jeff Flake keeps fighting the good fight

Via Reason , we learn about his new anti-pork website.

Keep it up, Jeff!

…………

Embarrassing moment for Krugman

Careful, Paul ...wouldn't want to look silly, now would we???

…………

Stats

Insufficient sample size, they need at least like 13 more Canucks to make a conclusion. Plus the Canadians were spending time at a debate, not the likely demographic of Canadians benefiting from their health care system

For some reason that reminds me of a high ranking Nazi politician going to a local school to indoctrinate the kids in Nazi propaganda. The officer pointed out a boy that was an excellent example of Aryan supremacy. The official just so happened to pick the blue eyed, blond hair boy who was the lone Jew in the classroom.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Canadian experiment in socialized health care is...

...notoriously poor.

Consider Canada's notorious waiting lists. In 1993, Canadians referred
by their doctors to specialists waited an average of 9.3 weeks for
treatment. By 2006, it was 17.8 weeks -- almost twice what's considered
clinically reasonable.

 While the average U.S. hospital is only nine years old, the average
hospital in Ontario, Canada's largest province, has been around for 40
years.

 Canada's cost advantage is also an illusion. True, Canada spends less
per GDP on medical care than America -- but so does Ethiopia. Such
comparisons are meaningless without considering value for money. And
compared to Americans, Canadians get relatively little in return for
the money they spend.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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I don't like Skinner's style

While the average U.S. hospital is only nine years old, the average
hospital in Ontario
, Canada's largest province, has been around for 40
years.

It would nice if they used nation wide stats for Canada. They're giving the impression that the stats are cherry picked.

The article doesn't cite any sources [doesn't mean he made them up, but makes it harder to fact check and makes it appear shady].

He also words things that make it appear hes playing voodoo with the numbers

Canada's long waits are partially caused by a shortage of doctors. Whereas the United States had 2.4 practicing physicians per 1,000 residents in 2004, Canada had only 2.1. That's a difference of 300 fewer doctors in a city of 1 million residents. New York's population is more than 8 million. Imagine what health care would be like in the Big Apple with 2,400 fewer physicians and you have some idea what it's like in Canada.

All he had to say was was the average Canadian doctor has 60 more residents to take care of.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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What is your waiting time?

Mine is that little sideways 8, also known as infinity.

I do not have health insurance, which also means I have no health care. My only option is the Firelands Medical Center emergency room that I will only go to against my will. Any emergency room stay will bankrupt me for sure, so I don't go. FMC will not get any money from me, so they'll write it off and charge the next person more to cover their losses. So in effect, I suppose I do have free health care after all ... and you're already paying for it.

Very lucky for me that I have an amazing immune system. I can't recall the last time I've been to a doctor outside of work physicals paid for by the employer**. I'd have to guess its been about 7 years.

My ex is not so lucky. I will not recount the story here since I already have, but your outlook on life changes when someone is in excruciating pain and they beg you to not take them to the hospital because they don't have insurance.

Generally, the Canadian system isn't the way I'd do it (I prefer the UK NHS, which even Margaret Thatcher supported), but its better than anything we have here outside of Medicare (which is also pretty horrible in its own right). For one, the Canadians outlaw private insurance, which I don't like.

The one thing conservatives and libertarians always miss in their analysis is that emergency rooms are required by law to treat people without regard to their ability to pay. As far as I know this is the only business where this occurs. Imagine if any business had to cater to customers in this way.

The only way to restore market forces properly would be to drop this requirement and simply let people die who can't pay. That way the hospital could be sure that their customers can pay before rendering services. The other way to fix this is by ensuring everyone can pay, which can only be done by a universal heath care mandate of some sort, be it a mandate on employers, government health insurance, or even state-run hospitals. Choose wisely.

**That doctor was actually amazed at my excellent health. My BP was exactly 120/80.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

LMAO@

Americans will get universal health care the usual way - a bailout of insurance companies.

Sic semper tyrannis

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"The seriousness of this issue is self-evident"

" Bob Barr Files Suit in Texas to Remove McCain, Obama from Ballot"

A 2006 Texas Supreme Court decision ruled that state laws "does not allow political parties or candidates to ignore statutory deadlines."

Can Bob get pigs to fly?

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

…………

Interesting you bring this up

I was going to make mention in tomorrow's open thread.

I read the court petition . The Barr campaign's arguments are based on a very reasonable interpretation of the law. In fact, I'd have to say they are based on the only possible interpretation of the law. Both the Democrats and the Republicans did not file in compliance with Texas law because of their late convention dates.

And with respect to the Texas court decision, the only possible option here is to kick them off the ballot. Of course, this will not happen. The judges will ignore the law because of the obvious harm done to the country if no one can vote for Obama or McCain in Texas. In fact, the Texas filing deadline for write-ins has passed, so they can't even be written-in, which would leave Barr as the only candidate on the ballot.

Obama's camp have a decent argument if they have to take this to court. Everyone knew the ticket was Obama/Biden before the deadline. The Democrats didn't formally nominate them until the 27th, though.

McCain has no such argument. No one (probably not even McCain) knew Palin would be the VP nominee on the 26th (the last day for on-time filings). They obviously did not comply with the laws.

This case should highlight the unequal treatment the Ds and Rs get over minor party candidates. If this was Nader or Barr, they'd have been off the ballot, no questions asked, and no court would put them back on.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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