Obama's and McCain's 10 Worst Ideas from Foreign Policy Magazine

Here Obama's 10 Worst Ideas .

Here's McCain's 10 Worst Ideas .

I think they are generally on the mark though I have some quibbles.

On Obama's, I'm not so sure how bad Number 4 is. Meeting with the Iranian President, by itself doesn't seem so bad to me. However, FP adds that Obama said he would do this "without precondition". Perhaps THAT isn't wise. I'm not sure. But according to a Carnegie Endowment expert on the matter:

“Only two things can rehabilitate Ahmadinejad politically: bombing Iran or major efforts to engage.”

While the effects of bombing Iran are incredibly obvious to all but the most chest-thumping hawks, efforts to engage seem a bit peculiar as a rehabilitation for Ahmadinejad. Like I said, I'm not sure. They could be right. I can think of much things Obama has said....but they are already on the list.

I agree that number 7 is bad...strangely enough.....but only because he seeks to favor one group over another. This is how special interest group BS starts.

Number 10 seems rather innocuous.

But the rest? Yeah. Kinda bad to REALLY bad.

On McCain's,

Number 2 on the gas tax holiday is bad only because it's stupid and ineffective. But harmful? no. Still, a dumb idea. I agree.

Number 3 seems bad only because it sounds better than it will work. Like FP says, such ideas at the state level haven't lowered any such burden. Congress simply circumvents it by legislating fees and other technically "non-tax" revenue generators. The only way to get the result is to eliminate certain taxes...flat out. Or, people must be willing push back at tax increases in a cross-ideological way and that isn't happening. Oh well.

"Drilling our way out" is not bad because it might work. It's bad because it WON'T work. The logic is simply flawed.

Making the Bush tax cuts permanent? No, not bad. FP simply believes the government "deserves this money" or something like that. And quoting someone from the pro-hyper-spending "Center for Budget and Policy Priorities" is hardly edifying....especially when they say:

“the tax cuts are more likely to reduce long-term growth than to increase it,”

That makes no sense unless you torture logic with a lot silly assumptions.

Comments :

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

Was JFK wrong to talk to Kruschev during the Cuban missle

crisis? Was Nixon wrong to talk to Mao during his term?

There were no pre-conditions placed then. Why would pre-conditions be useful now, aside from those that don't want the talks to happen to begin with.

As far as making the bush43 tax cuts permanent....You like the idea of almost doubling the National debt? That's not very fiscally conservative of you.

…………

King of "Appeasement"

Kevin James has disagreed about it being ok to talk to Iran. [That never gets old]

If there are renewed tax cuts, something large in the budget needs cut. $40 Billion of Pork isn't large enough.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

Correct

The pork isn't enough.

We must go further. I'm on board. How about you?

………… parent

Tying Medicare to increases in average life span is a tiny start

Just so long as the DoD gets to keep certain things

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

The military budget is the big one

Last I checked, Germany showed no signs of trying to invade its neighbors, so I think we can pull out of there. Same with Japan and just about all the countries in which we have troops stationed.

We should stay in S. Korea until we sign a peace treaty with the N. Koreans, but we may want to draw down some of our presence. I support our mission in Afghanistan and we should have troops in Iraq to train the Iraqi military.

Other than those exceptions, I don't see why we need troops anywhere else.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

Indeed...

but it can only realistically give about a quarter of the needed savings with any plausible decreases. I wish it could be more. Heck, even what I would want to cut will seem seem ludicrous to most.

………… parent

Rammstein, die Sonne scheint

I highly doubt the US would lose all staging areas in any given major geographic location.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

Assumptions, Assumptions

You like the idea of almost doubling the National debt? That's not very fiscally conservative of you.

You just keep fillin' in the blanks there....

………… parent

The blank was rather obvious:

“the tax cuts are more likely to reduce long-term growth than to increase it,”

That makes no sense unless you torture logic with a lot silly assumptions.

You're the one who (rightly) says that economics is non-linear. Why is it suddenly linear now?

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

I never said is was linear

I'm simply saying that you need to make a lot of silly assumptions for lower taxes to "likely reduce long-term growth".

………… parent

Why?

You (again, rightly) point out that there are lots of unintended consequences for certain government programs or regulations. The same is true here unless you do believe you can know that lower taxes will always increase growth.

No taxes would decrease growth. Infrastructure would crumble, for one. I think universal health care would increase growth even with higher taxes. The productivity gains from people not spreading their illness at work would do wonders.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

Walking on a tight rope.

Please stay inside the lines. I'm simply saying that keeping the tax cuts in place, without some very plausible and complex explanation, will not lead to lower growth.

But the scenarios you point to in the second paragraph are either extreme (no taxes) or involving new spending (health care). Even the health care argument has nothing to do with leaving the taxes in place.

Even in France, universal health insurance is funded through a separate tax.

The tax cuts are about general spending.

You need demonstrate plausibly how NOT raising these taxes back up is going to lead to lower growth. I simply don't see it.

………… parent

Actually, John, to be frank,

Actually, John, to be frank, one would have to make "silly assumptions" to assume that making the Bush tax cuts permanent (combined with continual patches on the AMT or eliminating the AMT) would not eventually lead to lower growth. Specifically, one would have to either assume an unrealistic GDP growth rate or assume politically unrealistic spending cuts.

We would be on a literally unsustainable course, due to the increased spending on entitlements, even if realistic levels of reductions in spending on those programs (vs. projections based on current law re: eligibility and benefits and based on realistic efficiency gains) were achieved. Eventually the interest expense (on the debt) would grow so large that we'd have to either default or monetize the debt (essentially print a ton of money) leading to very problematic inflation.

But before we got to that point, interest rates would rise very substantially (and would be much higher than they would have been had we raised taxes and produced a lower debt-to-GDP ratio), which would reduce GDP growth.

………… parent

Do you have data to support your postulation...

...because it would appear history demonstrates that to be incorrect.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Is there some element in

Is there some element in particular that you are questioning?

………… parent

What are you saying that

What are you saying that "history demonstrates"?

Anyway, you can start with this, a GAO report by David M. Walker Comptroller General of the United States: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d07389t.pdf In particular, see pages 14-15, section entitled "Meeting the Long-Term Fiscal Challenge Requires Action on the Spending and Tax Sides of the Budget--Cooperation and Compromise Will Be Necessary"

those who believe we can solve this problem solely by cutting spending or solely raising taxes are not being realistic...

...given demographic and health care cost trends, the size of the spending cuts necessary to hold revenues at today’s share of GDP seems implausible. It is not realistic to assume we can remain at 18.2 percent of GDP—we will need more revenues. Obviously we want to minimize the tax burden on the American people and we want to remain competitive with other industrial nations—but in the end the numbers have to add up.

As I noted, we need to start with real changes in existing entitlement programs to change the path of those programs. However, reform of the major entitlement programs alone will not be sufficient. Reprioritization and constraint will be necessary in other spending programs. Finally, we will need more revenues—hopefully through a reformed tax system.

………… parent

Ok, well that is different than...

...what I thought you were saying.

Lowering taxes generates more revenues, and McCain will veto any legislation with pork attached, reform entitlements of all kinds, restrain spending to its constitutional limits, less any existing federal obligations.

Look, the Republican Congress balanced the budget with welfare reform and a conservative approach to government in the 90's despite having a democrat in the white house, and that after the Reagan deficit liberals howled would bind our children to economic debt for generations.

So, there is work ahead, but unleash the power of American enterprise and tread lightly as far as government goes and we can do this.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Lowering taxes generates

Lowering taxes generates more revenues

Pardon me? Looks like someone has drunk the partisan Kool-Aid and is doing the partisan talking point machine thing again (and may be a bit analytically-challenged and fact-check-challenged).

No, lowering taxes, in general, has a net negative impact on revenues. There is almost universal agreement among well-credentialed economists on that point, even Bush's own current and former top economists.

the Republican Congress balanced the budget with welfare reform and a conservative approach to government in the 90's despite having a democrat in the white house

Where the heck do you get this stuff? Limbaugh? The budget ended up balanced because of revenue growth, which was mainly the result of GDP growth, not due to spending restraint, and the 1993 tax increases helped reduce the deficit.

Geez, man, you gotta get out (of the partisan echo chambers) more.

………… parent

Sounds to me like that is not a bad idea for yourself...

Historically, less taxation results in increased revenues .

So you can smirk and do gradeschool math in your head, or face the facts as they are.

At
some point, additional taxes so discourage the activity being taxed,
such as working or investing, that they yield less revenue rather than
more. There are, after all, two rates that yield the same amount of
revenue: high tax rates on low production, or low rates on high
production.

And as for why the budget was balanced, ever hear of the Contract with America ?

All ten items in the Contract with America were brought to a vote in the U.S. House in the first 100 days as promised by the Contract. Nine of the ten items passed the House. The sole exception was Term Limits which received a plurality but required a two-thirds majority as a Constitutional Amendment.


• Committee Chairmen were term-limited.


• The Office of Speaker was term-limited.


• The Legislative staff was cut including in the Speaker's office. Also reduced were committee sizes. Many unnecessary perks were eliminated.


• The Congress was forced to live under the same laws as the rest of the nation - OSHA, disabilities, and workplace laws.


• A big six accounting firm audited the U.S. House's finances.


• The Budget was balanced for the first time in a generation.


• The line-item veto passed and was signed into law.


• Eventually after a Presidential veto, taxes were cut for the first time in 17 years. Included were a cut in the capital gains tax, a $500 per child tax credit and new tax credits for tuition to college and voc-tech schools. The capital gains tax was actually scored as a revenue increase marking a significant shift in tax policy debates.


• Military spending increased for the first time in over 10 years including funding for a national missile defense.

Clinton managed a balanced-budget with a Republican Congress in
1997 by offering to cut Medicare costs.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Yeesh, you are so far gone

Yeesh, you are so far gone it's ridiculous. Are you in high school, if you don't mind me asking? You really seem to just swallow whole whatever you hear from some partisan source like Limbaugh.

You say that "Lowering taxes generates more revenues" and that "Historically, less taxation results in increased revenues", and you back that up with:
(1) a link to Dan Mitchell, who, despite the fact that he was employed at that time by Heritage and now by Cato, has, on other occasions, explicitly disagreed with your assumption that cutting taxes from rates anywhere near current rates (or those prior to the Bush tax cuts) would likely have a net positive impact on revenues,
(2) an obvious theoretical (Laffer Curve) point about what would happen at the extremes of tax rates that has offers essentially zero support to the point you were making, and
(3) a quote and link to "newt.org", highlighting a statement that the budget was balanced -- um, yeah, so?

Again, you really need to diversify your information sources, consider the likely biases and agendas of your sources as well as their level of expertise, think more critically and objectively, and apply logic and sound analysis tot he extent that you can.

As for the matter of the impact of tax cuts on revenues, see these links, and educate yourself rather than continuing to spew ignorant, stupid, harmful, bullsh*t partisan myths:
http://logicizer.blogtownhall.com/2007/11/15/no,_the_bush_tax_cuts_have_...

http://logicizer.blogtownhall.com/2007/10/20/the_logic_of_the_laffer_cur...

………… parent

Dan MItchell is very specific

about the matter of taxes and revenue. His POV is actually not incorrect at all. What can be incorrect at times are opinions that broad-brush what he says.

………… parent

You have some nerve...

...maybe, as in this instance, you should wait and see how things develop before you rain your personal views down upon ideas you disagree with, and dismiss it as folly?

I'm afraid reality is greater than the sum of your recent time spent clicking around on the internet!

Certainly, as in the Kennedy tax cuts it was a winner for the government. Even the Reagan tax cuts were a net positive until they were eventually seen as a government fix all for out of control spending. Both Reagan and Bush43 were strapped with wars to win, one cold one not, so... In general...

Let's step back from the politics and ask one simple question: Does
the idea of supply-side economics make fundamental good sense or not?

I
say that it does. It's so simple: Tax rates that are too high can be
self-defeating, and so lowering them can increase total revenues.
Bartlett told me that this idea can be traced all the way back to
Jonathan Swift, who wrote in 1728 that "in the business of heavy
impositions, two and two never make more than one." He noted that
economists and philosophers from Smith, Montesquieu, Say, and Mill, to
von Mises and Keynes, wrote about the basic principle.

I will say two things; 1) I am not saying under any circumstances tax reduction results in greater receipts, a tax cut now I agree it is pushing it, though I would advocate lowering corporate taxes as we have some of the worlds most oppressive corporate taxation. 2) Reducing taxes does stimulate the economy in a broad range of ways enough so that it can be a good thing regardless of if it is seen as a temporary federal spending package.

________________________________________________________________________

From Stephen Moore at CATO;

 

And 1993 -- the year of the giant Clinton tax hike -- was not the
turning point in the deficit wars, either. In fact, in 1995, two years
after that tax hike, the budget baseline submitted by the president's
own Office of Management and Budget and the nonpartisan Congressional
Budget Office predicted $200 billion deficits for as far as the eye
could see. The figure shows the Clinton deficit baseline. What changed
this bleak outlook?

Newt Gingrich and company -- for all their faults -- have
received virtually no credit for balancing the budget. Yet today's
surplus is, in part, a byproduct of the GOP's single-minded crusade to
end 30 years of red ink. Arguably, Gingrich's finest hour as Speaker
came in March 1995 when he rallied the entire Republican House caucus
behind the idea of eliminating the deficit within seven years.

Now let us contrast this with the Clinton fiscal record. Recall
that it was the Clinton White House that fought Republicans every inch
of the way in balancing the budget in 1995. When Republicans proposed
their own balanced-budget plan, the White House waged a shameless
Mediscare campaign to torpedo the plan -- a campaign that the
Washington Post slammed as "pure demagoguery." It was Bill Clinton who,
during the big budget fight in 1995, had to submit not one, not two,
but five budgets until he begrudgingly matched the GOP's
balanced-budget plan. In fact, during the height of the budget wars in
the summer of 1995, the Clinton administration admitted that "balancing
the budget is not one of our top priorities."

And lest we forget, it was Bill Clinton and his wife who tried
to engineer a federal takeover of the health care system -- a plan that
would have sent the government's finances into the stratosphere. Tom
Delay was right: for Clinton to take credit for the balanced budget is
like Chicago Cubs pitcher Steve Trachsel taking credit for delivering
the pitch to Mark McGuire that he hit out of the park for his 62nd home
run.

 

Try to tone your rhetoric down, or have this discussion with someone else. I understand that sort of condescending BS coming from some here who lack the ability to articulate their position, I spend more than my share of time faced with that fact, I hold you to a higher standard.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Yeesh, you may turn out to

Yeesh, you may turn out to be absolutely unshakable from your partisan myths and thus not worth much more of my time, but I'll try a bit more. And yes, you do seem like a high school kid who discovered Rush -- and through Rush, politics -- over his summer vacation, and can do no more than parrot GOP/conservative talking points. I realize that's insulting, but I'm really trying to get you to wake up, diversify your information sources, think more critically and objectively, etc.

And yes, I will dismiss your repetition of debunked partisan myths as "folly" and worse. It's not just something I "disagree with"; you are repeating a myth that conflicts with the nearly universal consensus of experts on the matter, and you have no basis for your belief other than whatever you've heard/read Rush or other mindless, ignorant, and/or disingenuous partisans say, combined with your own inability to apply even basic concepts of analysis -- as in, correlation does not necessarily imply causation, and certainly correlation among cherry-picked data points does not necessarily imply causation, or even a real correlation. Just because revenues go up in the years after a tax cut, it doesn't mean that the tax cut had a net positive impact on revenues. But you don't consider the other potential factors...unless someone asks you about the data points you left out, such as revenues rising after a tax increase, then you come out with other factors to which you attribute, with equal confidence, the revenue increase (e.g., the information technology advances and dotcom boom under Clinton, or cyclical emergence from a recession, rather than the 1993 tax increases).

And let's get this straight. In the context of a discussion of the impact of making permanent the Bush tax cuts and in response to my contention that doing so (along with continual patches on the AMT) would cause higher debt level as a percent of GDP, you said:
"Lowering taxes generates more revenues" and "Historically, less taxation results in increased revenues". Now you seem to be backtracking and trying to fundamentally change what you are asserting, saying now: "I am not saying under any circumstances tax reduction results in greater receipts, a tax cut now I agree it is pushing it". Listen, you made a statement that was either absolute or at least intended as a general rule. I've shown you that prominent conservative economists, including Bush's own current and former top economists, say the opposite: that as a general rule, and with regard to the Bush tax cuts in particular, tax cuts (from rates anywhere near where we are or were prior to the Bush cuts) have substantial net negative impact on revenues. Even your buddy Dan Mitchell who owes his paycheck to folks who want taxes as low as they can get them says that, albeit with weaselly additions he must know are misleading. Mitchell ackowledges that there is general agreement that tax cuts from current levels would generally be expected to have a net negative impact on revenues, but he adds a couple of weaselly points:

- First, after making that general point that tax cuts generally do NOT pay for themselves (let alone increase revenues), he puts up a bullet point slide saying only that "Not All Tax Cuts Pay for Themselves" (emphasis mine). That's like if I said I generally don't eat 5,000 calories in a day and then recapped with a bullet point saying "I don't eat 5,000 calories every day".

- Second, he points to revenue increases following capital gains tax cuts, and even alludes to the "unlocking effect", but doesn't point out that this is mostly a timing effect -- an acceleration of revenues that would have come later, rather than a permanent net positive effect. In fact, Greg Mankiw and others state their views on the long-term degree revenue feedback effect of cuts in capital gains tax rates on the list of quotes to which I linked, if you bothered to read it.

By the way, I had a long email exchange with Dan Mitchell on this matter in 2006 when he was with Heritage. One quote from one of his emails:
If the Bush tax rate reductions are made permanent, my personal guess (no science here, just a hunch) is that the revenue feedback would be about 50 percent. In other words, they would not pay for themselves, but a 50 percent feedback is still very impressive.

Regarding the budget coming into balance due to revenue increases vs. spending cuts/restraint, take a look at this chart and tell me if you still think the deficit was eliminated (and surplus generated) on the spending side rather than the revenue side http://www.heritage.org/research/features/BudgetChartBook/fed-rev-spend-...

As for Stephen Moore, former president of the Club for Growth, he is one of a handful of partisan hacks who have made a living by being contrarian -- that is, claiming the opposite of what almost all well-credentialed economists are saying -- on the question of the relationship between tax cuts and revenues, relating to individual taxes on labor and investment income in the range of tax rates we are in and have been in in recent history*. I'll save you some trouble by listing a few others who pop up often, some of whom have little to no economics education: Pete DuPont, Brian Wesbury, Larry Kudlow, Art Laffer.

Lastly, re:
I'm afraid reality is greater than the sum of your recent time spent clicking around on the internet!

That is a moronic statement. You make it sound like I'm basing my view on some obscure website or blogger on the Internet, whereas what I provided you in my futile attempt to educate you was a long list of quotes of prominent conservative economists on this very question.

* The relationship for corporate tax rates and revenues in the U.S. is apparently more complex and has not been the subject of as much study or stated conclusions among economists -- so there is no similar consensus, one way or another, on the direction of the relationship: whether a corporate tax cut from today's rates would likely have a net positive or negative impact on revenues. It is worth noting, though, that the Bush tax cuts pertained primariliy to individual income taxes (on labor and investment income), not to corporate taxes.

………… parent

A small addition on Mitchell, BR

I hope it's clear to you (and all) that he is quite honest and accurate about how he judges the effects of tax cuts paying for themselves. He is not a peddler of propaganda or deception. If you watch his video series on taxes, it's clear that he never ASSERTS anything that isn't true and makes it a point to dispel any myths about all tax cuts being 100% revenue positive or better.

I don't consider Mitchell to be a hack or ditto head on this matter and it would be a shame if anyone got that impression.

He's obviously pro-tax cuts but he's honest about the effects on revenues. That said, as a matter of opinion, I would venture to say that tax cuts that have some positive feedback are a good option provided the gap left from the feedback is handled through spending cuts.

The one important thing I take from Mitchell's series on tax cuts and revenue that more people should consider is that it is simplistic to judge the loss of revenue as static 100% loss. IOW, a tax cut that would cut revenues by $50 Billion based on current income tax collections does NOT mean that the tax cut will bring in $50 Billion less in revenues for the government once enacted. It could $40 Billion less or $30 Billion less or $25 Billion less (at 50% feedback) but not $50 billion less. And that is just in the first year. The following year could be even a bit better and so on...while never totally paying for itself in anyway that can be measured. But I won't make any bolder claim than that. The rest is simply speculation at worst and complex yet suspect formulizing and calculating at best.

………… parent

Yes, obviously there

Yes, obviously there generally are revenue feedback effects to tax cuts, and obviously static scoring ignores such effects and thus overstates the revenue loss from a tax cut. No serious person contends otherwise, although some reporting and partisan rhetoric fail to point that out and misuse calculations based on static scoring.

As for Mitchell, I didn't accuse him of saying anything dishonest or incorrect. I will say, though, that he has tried to spin matters and say things that are dliberately somewhat misleading and conducive to misinterpretation in a manner favorable to tax cuts. I gave a couple of examples in my comments related to the video I posted. Also, while he was at Heritage, he wrote something that led to an extended email exchange in which he told me that he was not implying that the Bush tax cuts (or tax cuts generally) had had, or would eventually have, a net positive impact on revenues. He wrote on 10/13/06, as a bullet point in a section of a column (post) with the heading: "Lessons from the 2006 Budget Numbers" (bolding/italics mine):

Good tax policy generates a Laffer Curve effect and can lead to a net result of more revenues. The Bush Administration has demonstrated why some tax cuts are more desirable than others. The 2003 tax bill included significant reductions in marginal tax rates on work, saving, and investment. The subsequent economic growth led to the significant increase in taxable income, which resulted in the boost in tax revenues evident today. The faster economic growth unambiguously is desirable, and America’s competitive position in the world has improved. The 2001 tax cut, by contrast, with its short-term focus on rebates and credits—lower tax rates were included, but deferred until the future—did very little to improve incentives for productive behavior. As a result, there was little economic benefit. The Laffer Curve-induced increase in tax revenue from the 2003 bill, however, is a mixed blessing. On the plus side, politicians likely now have a better understanding of the benefits of lower tax rates, but they also have less incentive to control spending.

In the email exchange he denied that he was trying to create the impression that the Bush tax cuts had had a net positive impact on revenues, and claimed he could not even see why someone would interpret his statement above as implying that. I'll leave it up to you to judge the likelihood of those claims being sincere, and bear in mind who was paying his salary, and who is doing so today.

………… parent

I don't see the problem

If you follow his wording, he doesn't say anything wrong. It's all in the interpretation. I don't see anything misleading.

………… parent

You don't think that many or

You don't think that many or most people are likely to "interpret" that statement, in the context of "Lessons Learned from the 2006 Budget Numbers" as an assertion that the 2003 tax cut had a net positive impact on revenues? I think most people would, and I find it hard to believe that that was not the intent, while providing some wriggle room for deniability.

………… parent

Honestly,

Some will, some won't.

Willing conservatives will gloss over it and use it as a validation for supply side tax cut logic under any and all circumstances. Willing liberals will gloss over it and assume the same thing from a negative "BAH!" standpoint.

Then people like you who are very sensitive about debunking the "tax cuts always pay for themselves" meme, will think he's trying to be sly without actually lying. People like me...who like tax cuts but don't believe in the universal supply-side meme will just take him at his word and appreciate the precise wording.

………… parent

But leaving aside the

But leaving aside the question of his implication regarding tax cuts in general, don't you think a reasonable reading of that statement of his would be that he's (at least most likely) implying that (1) the 2003 Bush tax cuts in particular have had a positive net impact on revenues, and (2) those types of tax cuts will generally have such an effect?

………… parent

Sure, he's saying it had a positive effect on revenues

But he's not claiming that they totally paid for themselves. He says they cuts led to savings and investment and the subsequent economic growth led to a boost in taxable income. It's true. No problem there.

Saying the tax cuts has a positive impact on revenues is not the same as saying that they paid for themselves. There's nothing ambiguous there. He said that they had a positive effect...but he doesn't say how much because it's tough to tell for sure. But tax revenues did climb and surpass the 2000 levels and with lower tax rates. Would they have been higher THAT YEAR had there been no tax cuts? Perhaps. We don't know. But the fact that the government got a good boost in its precious revenues that surpassed 2000 levels with lower rates is a success all by itself. What I think we CAN say for sure, however, is that we simply can't add up the taxable income from the year in question and apply the older tax rates and pretend that all that extra revenue would have been collected just the same. It may have been a tad more than what was collected with those rates in place...maybe the same....at a stretch maybe even less. It's hard to tell what those previous years would have been like without the tax cuts in place.

Like I said, I see no problem in what he said. The problem you seem to have with it is that he isn't presenting it the way the you want it presented. That's simply a preference on your part.

………… parent

I think you're being extremely generous

with your interpretation of what he said.

My quick read very much agrees with B Rational's take, for whatever that's worth, based primarily on the parts he italicized.

I suppose if he emailed that he wasn't intending to give that impression one should take him at his word, but it frankly seems odd to me that he'd be surprised someone could read it that way.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

………… parent

I don't see that

The problem here comes with the implications that people choose to take from positive effect.

If you think that has to mean he's saying the tax cuts paid for themselves, then you have a problem with what he said...otherwise no.

And I don't see him saying that the tax cuts paid for themselves. If he wanted to claim that, he would have...but he didn't.

………… parent

Ok

I guess we just interpreted it differently.

It would be interesting to see how most people read it, but unfortunately we don't have a large (and unbiased) sample to work from here at SC.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

………… parent

Read it closely

I'm actually being charitable when I talk about interpretation. His words are precise and clear.

………… parent

Look again, Brendan:

Good tax policy generates a Laffer Curve effect and can lead to a net result of more revenues. The Bush Administration has demonstrated why some tax cuts are more desirable than others. The 2003 tax bill included significant reductions in marginal tax rates on work, saving, and investment. The subsequent economic growth led to the significant increase in taxable income, which resulted in the boost in tax revenues evident today.

Notice the first sentence is a general statement. The second sentence is where speaks specifically about the tax cuts.

Nothing is ambiguous there unless you want to suggest that he saying more than that. It's not there.

………… parent

I dunno

Why would he say "can lead to a net result of more revenues" if he is not intending to suggest that such has occurred in this specific case?

It would be like me writing "A good football team needs a quarterback who can be counted upon to come through under pressure. The Eagles cannot be considered a good football team."

The first sentence is general, the second specific, but the combined effect gives the impression that I am suggesting McNabb can't be counted upon to come through under pressure, doesn't it?

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

………… parent

My stab at it, "of the quote"

"Laffer Curve effect and can lead to a net result of more revenues"

"subsequent economic growth [due to the Bush43 tax cuts] led to the significant increase in taxable income, which resulted in the boost in tax revenues evident today."

"[The Bush43 tax cut was evidence of the Laffer Curve and a reduction in taxes increasing growth and increasing tax revenue]"

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

Actually, it's even clearer

Actually, it's even clearer than that.

………… parent

I think you have higlighted the wrong word ...

"can lead to a net result of more revenues"

In other words, SOME tax cuts CAN lead to a net result of more revenues. He then goes on to claim that the Bush 2003 tax cuts are an example of one that DID, and that the 2001 tax cuts are and example of one that DID NOT.

This seems unambiguous to me. 

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Right, that is my

Right, that is my interpretation, but John for some reason doesn't think Mitchell was stating or implying that the 2003 tax cuts had a net impact of more revenues. Of course he was.

………… parent

BR - In light of the direction this has gone...

...why was your initial reaction to me this - when I suggested that very thing?

Red Wing: Lowering taxes generates more revenues

B Rational: Pardon me? Looks like someone has drunk the partisan Kool-Aid and is
doing the partisan talking point machine thing again (and may be a bit
analytically-challenged and fact-check-challenged).

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Oh geez, now I have to try

Oh geez, now I have to try to deconstruct what you said and explain your obvious misunderstanding. I guess you aren't distinguishing between what I'm saying Mitchell was saying vs. what I'm saying is valid. You should.

………… parent

GR is also stating his opinion.

GR thinks the 2003 tax cuts paid for themselves. That opinion is mixed into and influences his reading of what Mitchell said. Now, Mitchell may or may not privately think that is true but he didn't say it at all. As I said earlier as an aside, I ALLOW FOR the idea that those tax cuts netted more tax revenue in the year that they spiked than we would have had otherwise (we can't be sure)...but that is a separate point in addition to what Mitchell said.

………… parent

It is true that I believe the 2003 tax cuts ...

probably paid for themselves, but I don't think that I am letting that influence my reading of Mitchell's statement as quoted above.

I think a straight-forward reading of his statement pretty much indicates that Mitchell is saying that the 2003 tax cuts actually increased revenues, albeit indirectly by increasing the over-all taxable income base through increased production.

Of course we all seem to know that there is no way to PROVE that one way or the other. And there's the rub. The zealots on both sides can still claim they are right which is sort of John's point, I think.

Even if the tax cuts didn't completely pay for themselves in a total revenue sense, I am also open to other reasonable interpretations of "net positive effect". For example, how about maximizing the value of "Total Income per Unit of Burden" on the taxpayer. In other words try to get the most income with the least impact on the taxpayer.

If we equate "Unit of Burden" with "Percentage Point of Tax Rate" we have the situation we are discussing here. By that definition any delta (positive or negative) to the tax rate which increases the ratio of income to tax rate can be considered a "good thing" in the sense that it is seeking the sweet spot of the tax rates where you get the optimal amount of revenue. Any rate lower than that misses "cheap" revenue increases, and any rate over that merely becomes increasingly oppressive for diminishing gains.

I guess I am still assuming a Laffer like curve here where the sweet spot in at the maximum point on the curve.

While I admit I haven't thought this through so it may have plenty of holes, I think it illustrates another possible interpretation of "net positive effect" which doesn't necessarily imply "higher over-all revenues". Anyway, its too late to be thinking these things up.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Not the same thing...

I think a straight-forward reading of his statement pretty much indicates that Mitchell is saying that the 2003 tax cuts actually increased revenues, albeit indirectly by increasing the over-all taxable income base through increased production.

Yes. I agree but that's not necessarily the same thing as saying that the tax cuts paid for themselves and then some with a net increase in taxes over pre-tax cut rates.

I agree, revenues went up sharply after the tax cuts had their effect because the cuts contributed (led to..in part) economic growth that increased taxable income and led to, thus, a shapr increase in revenues from the year before and the year before that. That is what I clearly see Mitchell saying:

Tax cuts had a positive influence on growth and that growth dramatically increased taxable income which gave a sharp increase in tax revenues. That's what he said and that what I see.

………… parent

I dunno, Brendan

He said what he said because tax cuts can lead to a net of more revenues in certain cases. He simply followed that by showing specifically that the tax cuts increased the amount of taxable income...which led to massive increase of tax revenues. It's a related point.

I've watched the whole video series and I never thought he was trying to hoodwink anyone. He's speaking positively about tax cuts and their positive effects when done properly. If you watch all the videos, I think he's quite clear about caveats to overstating the results from certain tax cuts.

But yes, the Bush tax cuts led to an increase in the taxable income base and that led to a sharp increase in revenue...increases that beat projections if you recall.

But most of this criticism of Mitchell is simply splitting hairs.

………… parent

We are not talking about

We are not talking about anything Mitchell said in his videos or elsewhere, we are talking about what is a reasonable reading of that statement in the context in which it appeared, "Lessons of the 2006 Budget Numbers" in a Heritage Foundation piece

yes, the Bush tax cuts led to an increase in the taxable income base and that led to a sharp increase in revenue

John, I say this in a friendly way, but your use of "led to" is a very common "weasel word" tactic. "Led to" can mean either "was followed by chronologically" or "caused", and this ambiguity is why "led to" is appealing for anyone who wants to blur the matter. We are discussing Mitchell's implication of "caused" or at least "contributed to" as in "had a net positive impact on" revenues. So let's keep that clear.

...increases that beat projections if you recall.

Another tactic used (intentionally or not) by those who are blurring the issue. The question is "Are revenues higher than they would have been otherwise -- i.e., if the tax cuts had not taken place?" NOT "Are revenues higher than projected revenues?" Multi-year projections are not particularly accurate.

I'm not accusing you of deliberate obfuscation, but people often, either deliberately or due to confusion, make the arguments you've made above.

………… parent

"Led to"

means that the cuts are positively correlated to the economic growth that followed to some degree which "led to" an increase in taxable income.

"Led to" appears with increase in taxable income that came from this growth.

Let's not get mixed up here.

………… parent

No.

The question is "Are revenues higher than they would have been otherwise

No. That's YOUR question..

………… parent

ok, I'll just drop this

ok, I'll just drop this subject. It's getting unnecessarily tedious, and I don't want to keep trying to keep things focused and explain the logic of everything, at least not more tonight. I think it's all pretty clear, really.

………… parent

Agreed.

It is very tedious. ;)

………… parent

I think Brendan is being too

I think Brendan is being too nice. I have a hard time seeing even reasonable disagreement on this "interpretation" matter.

First, I assume we can agree that when someone says that a tax cut has had a net positive effect on revenues, then he is saying not only that the tax cut has "paid for itself", but that it has gone beyond that point -- that the revenue feedback effects have been sufficient not only for the tax cut to have paid for itself, but to have exceeded revenue-neutrality, right?

Now, again:

Mitchell is discussing (per the heading of the section of his piece) "Lessons from the 2006 Budget Numbers".

He says (my italics and capitalization):
"Good tax policy generates a Laffer Curve effect and can lead to a NET result of more revenues."

If all he meant was that there is some degree of revenue feedback effect, why would he include the word "net"??

"The 2003 tax bill ... The subsequent economic growth led to the significant increase in taxable income, which resulted in the boost in tax revenues evident today."

What "boost" is he referring to, if not the increases in revenue from 2003 to that point in 2006?

"The Laffer Curve-induced increase in tax revenue from the 2003 bill, however, is a mixed blessing ... politicians ... have less incentive to control spending."

So the Laffer Curve effect from the 2003 tax cut induced an increase in tax revenue, but it's a mixed blessing, because it leaves politicians with more revenue than they would have had without the 2003 tax cut. Pretty clear what he's saying, isn't it??

Really, John, I just don't see how you can content that he is not trying to give the impression that the 2003 tax cuts have had a net positive impact on revenues, and that the increase in revenues since then were at least partly attributable to those tax cuts. I don't know how to make it any clearer, so I guess we're at an impasse, but I won't consider this one of those "agree to disagree" cases, as if a reasonable interpretation could easily go either way.

I assume you're a fan of Cato, but try to be objective about this. If it makes it easier to be objective, Mitchell wrote this while he was with Heritage.

………… parent

The "Good tax policy quote"

is a general statement. It does refer to specifically to the Bush Tax cuts. His direct comment on the Bush Tax cuts was that they helped boost economic growth which greatly increased the amount of taxable income.

Yes, tax revenues increased and they increased a lot. Look at revenues from the year following the tax cuts. Revenues increased not just a but dramatically. He isn't lying.

………… parent

Yeah, no kidding that

Yeah, no kidding that revenues increased. I'm not disputing that fact. But what is your point in stating that fact as we discuss the meaning of Mitchell's statement?

Anyway, I just don't know how to make my point any clearer, and I've already made it so clear that I think any objective observer would conclude that Mitchell's statement was (at least most likely) an implication that the 2003 tax cuts had had a net positive impact on revenues. Therefore, I must conclude that you are not being objective and I can't get you to be objective on this matter, so I give up.

………… parent

Relax, buddy :)

I'm just reading what's there. If you want say that some people take more from it than Mitchell intended, you may have a point. I'm simply reading it that way Mitchell intended it.

………… parent

No, I think it's quite clear

No, I think it's quite clear that I'm not just saying that "some people take more from it than Mitchell intended", but that (1) most people will see Mitchell's statement as making the implication in question, (2) such is the reasonable and predictable reading of Mitchell's statement, (3) Mitchell most likely intended to give that false impression, and (4) #1 and #2, and probably #3, are not even matters on which there can be reasonable disagreement. As I've explained, they are quite obvious to an objective observer.

I'm relaxed, by the way :-)

………… parent

To what are you attributing the revenue increases?

Yeah, no kidding that revenues increased. I'm not disputing that fact.

I agree that Mitchell is clearly stating that he attributes the revenue increase to the 2003 tax cuts. This is consistent with his opening statement that some tax cuts can result in revenue increases. He also states that the 2001 tax cuts did NOT result in revenue increases.

His primary point seems to be that not all tax cuts are created equal in terms of generating revenue increases and he contrasts the targets of the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts to illustrate that point. He is saying that tax cuts similar to the 2003 cuts which, for whatever reason, provided incentives for productive behavior are the "good tax cuts" because they result in more taxable income and therefore more revenue.

This all seems pretty common sensical to me. Isn't this just supply side economics 101 stuff? Mitchell is saying that the 2003 tax cuts serve, in his opinion, as an example of the validity of the supply side view.

What am I missing here?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Ooooh.... Good Question!

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

You are not missing

You are not missing anything. Your reading of Mitchell's statement is correct. John disagrees with you, not me.

As for the validity of Mitchell's statement, if you see my compilation of views of conservative economists http://logicizer.blogtownhall.com/2007/11/15/no,_the_bush_tax_cuts_have_... , you'll see that even conservative economists do not agree. I can't lay out for you what did cause the increases in revenues following 2003 (I could speculate and I've seen explanations -- e.g., the Fed aggressively lowering interest rates; a normal cyclical rebound from recession; the fact that, in general, the economy is more often growing, even in real terms, than in recession, regardless of tax increases or decreases; etc., but I don't really know), but more importantly, I find the views of those conservative economists on this point credible.

………… parent

Not at all. I have no problem with what GR said

It's a defensible point. I never specifically said anything to the contrary. If you go over what I said with a fine tooth comb, GR's take and what I've said to you are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Some points have overlap and gray area.

No need to be overly B&W about it.

………… parent

Ugh, come on. GR and I are

Ugh, come on. GR and I are saying that clearly Mitchell was implying that the 2003 tax cuts had a net positive impact on revenues. You are denying that.

………… parent

OK.

And I am saying that GR's sympathy toward the idea is making him perhaps see a little more than is really there.

………… parent

It could be ...

but I really don't think that it is in this case. I can be very objective when I want to be and in this case I am giving you my objective opinion.

Even so, this is my opinion of what I thing Mitchell's opinion is so that leaves plenty of wiggle room for everyone, I think. :)

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

agreed.

But I just don't see Mitchell claiming that the tax cuts totally and wholly paid for themselves.

My opinion of Mitchell's opinion on that matter is that he really doesn't care if the tax cuts totally and wholly paid for themselves and yielded more total than the hypothetical option of leaving the prior tax rates in place. He demonsrates that the 2003 cuts yielded a good amount of extra revenue to justify themselves. And there, I agree.

………… parent

My uninformed and biased reading

To me, "positive effect" would imply that revenues are higher than they would be without the cuts. I understand now that that's not what it really means, since as you say, there is no way of knowing what the revenue would be without the cuts. But, from where I stand (in a place of very little economic knowledge), the common sense interpretation of the passage is exactly what you are saying it is not. Whether or not Mitchell intentionally wrote it in such a way that dummies like me would interpret it to mean that the tax cuts payed for themselves is, I think, the important question here. Not knowing anything at all about the guy, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt, and say he is too knowledgeable for his own good! In other words, he makes assumptions that are obvious to him (and apparently you, too, John) but which are not at all obvious to a vast majority of the rest of the world. If he has a history of writing such easily misinterpreted statements, and they all are easily misinterpreted in the same way, then I might not give him the benefit of the doubt anymore, and think he is being intentionally misleading. But I don't know one way or the other.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

"positive effect" was not Mitchell's

wording. Others were paraphrasing him that way. If you look at what Mitchell said, he never put it that way.

You should watch his entire video series and share what you reaction is. I think you'll think better of him for it.

………… parent

Mitchell!

Well, substitute "boost in tax revenues" for "positive effect" and my point remains the same. I don't think badly of him. (In fact, after this comment, I probably won't think of him at all!) Like I said, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. I don't think he intentionally worded that passage to deceive, but I do think that it is easily misinterpreted to mean more than it says. Apparently 4 out of 5 Swords Crossers agree!

(Bonus points to anyone who gets the 15-year-old reference that explains the exclamation point in my subject line.)

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

I claim the points

Go ahead on. It's your move!

Edit: Whoops! That was a different Joe Don Baker train wreck. I've only ever seen Mitchell on MST3K (the best TV show ever ... outside of Star Trek: TNG of course).

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

Excellent!

I've only ever seen Mitchell on MST3K

I can't imagine watching it any other way! "Why would anybody wanna do this with Mitchell, Joel?"

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

First, again, let's please

First, again, let's please dispense with the obvious:

What I think we CAN say for sure, however, is that we simply can't add up the taxable income from the year in question and apply the older tax rates and pretend that all that extra revenue would have been collected just the same.

Yes, we can say that, and it's so obvious we need not dwell on it. I've already said that no one with a clue really thinks otherwise. Hopefully we're done with that, because it has no bearing on what we're discussing, which is (1) whether or not the degree of revenue feedback effect (from the increase in economic growth and reduced tax avoidance) is sufficient to wholly compensate (and then some) for the reduction in rates, and (2) whether or not Mitchell was stating/implying/hinting that tax cuts in general, and/or the 2003 Bush tax cuts in particular, were sufficient to to do.

Sure, he's saying it had a positive effect on revenues
But he's not claiming that they totally paid for themselves

John, he is saying (or at least strongly implying or trying to give the impression that he is implying) that the 2003 Bush tax cuts (and tax cuts like them in general) have a net increase in revenues. Come on, man, re-read that statement. Are you seriously telling me you think he only means to give the impression that there are some degree of revenue feedback effects, and does not mean to give the impression that those effects are sufficiently great for the 2003 tax cuts to have a net positive impact on revenues???

………… parent

Just wanted to reiterate that point you cited in the first part.

Beyond that, I stand by what I said and what I said to Brendan above pretty much sums that up.

Now,

(1) whether or not the degree of revenue feedback effect (from the increase in economic growth and reduced tax avoidance) is sufficient to wholly compensate (and then some) for the reduction in rates, and (2) whether or not Mitchell was stating/implying/hinting that tax cuts in general, and/or the 2003 Bush tax cuts in particular, were sufficient to to do.

Well, that quote represents that matter of opinion involved with how we value the tax cuts and the results.. And that matter of opinion is just that...an opinion. One can acknowledge that tax cuts didn't fully pay for themselves and still think it was good...ie, sufficient to compensate (even if not wholly) for the reduction in rates.

The addition of that word "wholly" is where you break from Mitchell. For Mitchell, "WHOLLY" is not a criteria....obviously. For him, it's just that the effect was positive...meaning the revenue feedback was enough to justify the reduction. Of course, that implies an obvious position on the massive increases in spending that took at the same time as the tax cuts.

So again, Mitchell never implies the idea of "wholly" and neither did I. The idea of "wholly" is your criteria and yours alone. Let's be clear on that.

On that second quote, he never said "net positive". He said "net" when speaking in general about good tax policy that seeks effectively use the Laffer Curve effect...which CAN lead to a net result of more revenues. THEN, he spoke specifically about the Bush Tax Cuts which helped fuel a an economic boost which led to sizable increase in taxable revenue. All true. You're changing the words around.

………… parent

See my comment of a few

See my comment of a few minutes ago http://swordscrossed.org/node/2442#comment-95727

I have to say, John, that I think you are not being objective. Your judgment is too good for you to take the positions and make the arguments you are making regarding Mitchell's statement. I have to conclude that your objectivity is not present due to your affinity with Cato.

………… parent

BR, you said to me your sole interest was trying...

...to get me to think objectively, etc...

So without any covert attempt at insult or malice of any sort, I must share a observation I have had in following your posts.

Many of your longer discussions seem to inevitably come to a point where you become close minded yourself and begin to take a subjective position like in the example below:

I have to say, John, that I think you are not being objective. Your judgment is too good for you to take the positions and make the arguments you are making regarding Mitchell's statement. I have to conclude that your objectivity is not present due to your affinity with Cato.

I don't know how to make it any clearer, so I guess we're at an
impasse, but I won't consider this one of those "agree to disagree"
cases, as if a reasonable interpretation could easily go either way.

 Anyway, I just don't know how to make my point any clearer, and I've
already made it so clear that I think any objective observer would
conclude that Mitchell's statement was (at least most likely) an
implication that the 2003 tax cuts had had a net positive impact on
revenues. Therefore, I must conclude that you are not being objective
and I can't get you to be objective on this matter
, so I give up.

As if no matter how much the other person makes their case, you deny them the same potential of validity they afford you. 

Again, no offense, just sincere feedback.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

I'll take your feedback for

I'll take your feedback for what it's worth, considering the source and the validity of the premises and reasoning.

………… parent

There is a wealth of research material available to you... ;-)

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

LOL.

Oh, boy.

I think I'm being quite fair, BR.

I'll concede that PERHAPS my familiarity with subject matter and sympathy for what Mitchell is trying to convey means that nothing slips by on the matter and I know what Mitchell means.

………… parent

The bias you are burdened by is just as unambiguous BR...

...and to many, I assure you, it is just as contemptible than that which you scorn.

Just FYI, I am 44 old, and have an MBA from the The Thunderbird School .

For you to categorically dismiss a substantial body of work supporting an opposing position, be it the current populist view or not, is simply an indignant form of intellectual snobbery.

Furthermore, your sophomoric attempt to discredit any aspect of supply side economics by making denigratory comments about me is the only thing I find juvenile here BR, it only emphasizes a lack of legitimate gravitas on your part.

So in terms of this particular discussion, it's case closed - next case from my point of view.

I would like to think our next opportunity to discuss whatever subject matter presents itself will be held to a stricter exemplar.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Good for you re:

Good for you re: Thunderbird, although I'm not sure I can say the same in reverse, because, based on my experience at Kellogg (Northwestern), I would think that having earned an MBA from a good program you'd show better analytical skills than to apparently mistake cherry-picked observations of correlation as actual correlation and even causation, as well as showing better research and general critical thinking skills.

In any case, what is this supposed "substantial body of work" supporting the notion that tax cuts such as the Bush tax cuts are likely to have a net positive impact on revenues? Who is making this case? Please provide links.

And what do you make of all the prominent conservative economists, including Bush's own top economists, who say that you are wrong, and some of whom say essentially that no (or nearly no) serious economists agree with your assertion?

As for folks like Stephen Moore, remember, credibility is a function not only of expertise, but also of objectivity and sincerity. If someone has a vested interest in making an assertion, his objectivity and sincerity are suspect. On the other hand if someone has a vested interest in making the opposite assertion from the one they actually make, they have no reason to be biased toward that conclusion nor any reason to state that conclusion insincerely, so their credibility, ceteris paribus, is higher. That's why, when I searched for well credentialed economists who are making the assertion that you did about tax cuts generally increasing revenues, I sought out conservative economists in particular, including Bush's own economists. All I found was consistent rejection of what you are asserting -- consistent assertion that tax cuts in general, and tax cuts such as Bush's, have a substantial net negative impact on revenues, even over the long term.

So again, what do you think of the above, and what is your "substantial body of work" to the contrary?

………… parent

Well listen, let me make a concession of sorts...

BR - Let me preface this by saying...

I am not... by any stretch of imagination an economist. You admittedly have a firmer grasp of the state of affairs with respect to taxes than I.

I am... an excellent manager, marketer, and generally speaking possess a fairly high business acumen. That is to say I have spent my life to this point on the firing line building and running my businesses, not doing national economic analysis per say, as my real interests lay elsewhere.

When I left school in 1988 I had witnessed firsthand the power of the idea that lowering taxes turns the economy on. So I am basing my comments not on any in depth attempt at analysis, but on my observations as I am here in my office, running my business.

Reagan's economic program in particular was an amazing thing to watch.
From stagflation, and that oppressive economic environment, to the
reversal of fortune in such short order was inspiring. So that is what
moved me from the demand side to the supply side of things.

What started our conflict it would seem was my comment that I find it curious, and I still do, how the Kennedy, Reagan and Bush tax cuts were followed by economic prosperity and abundance. That was the historical precident I mentioned.

Anyway, though I can speak to many business and political issues in penetrating terms, this is not one of those. For me to attempt a prudent defense would be to do it a disservice.

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Thanks for that reasonable

Thanks for that reasonable comment. I am not an economist either, although I've taken an interest in the subject of our fiscal imbalance and related factors. My only formal education is probably comparable to yours, since I assume you took macro and micro at Thunderbird.

But what I'd encourage you to do, on this matter and others, is to seek out opinion/conclusions from a variety of experts and consider their potential biases and agendas, rather than accept those partisan talking points just because they get repeated back and forth among like-minded people so often that they become viewed as gospel within that segment. That's what I did, and what I do in general with policy matters in which I have no expertise, which is just about all of them. We have to turn to expert opinion/conclusions and apply our best judgment as to the credibility of each expert.

As you can see in my compilation of quotes of conservative economists (including Bush's own), I went straight to the economists who would have every incentive to support the contention that tax cuts in general, and Bush's in particular, have a net positive impact on revenues, and found near universal statements to the contrary. I think one should find such a consensus very persuasive.

………… parent

I do try... ;-)

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

………… parent

Keep in mind, BR

You'll be hard to pressed to find any thoughtful conservative or libertarian economists or very economically inclined commentators ( like Megan McArdle or Will Wilkinson) make broad brushed assertions about supply side tax cuts and Laffer curves.

For example, whenever I see Thoma beating this matter to death, I seriously wonder who the hell worth his/her salt on economic matters is really making such bold and broad statements that he feels the need to continually make the obvious point that not all tax cuts pay for themselves. It's such a nothing point to me. It really is a strawman. Pointing to conservative politicians or moronic pundits on blogs and TV doesn't cut the mustard, IMO. Who is seriously making this broad-brush claim? Nobody worth listening to, IMO.

………… parent

Ha, this sounds just like the global warming crowd ...

There is almost universal agreement among well-credentialed economists on that point, even Bush's own current and former top economists.

Translation for the left-wing double-speak challenged:

There is almost universal some agreement among well-credentialed left-wing approved economists on that point when interpreted as loosely as possible in our favor, even Bush's own current and former top economists which just proves that Bush really IS a moron at picking advisors.

 

You have to admire the Chutzpah of the left wing.  They just declare themselves "right" and label anyone who disagrees a crack pot.  The topic doesn't seem to matter, climate change, economics, whatever ... 

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

That is such an asinine

That is such an asinine comment I almost can't believe it, even coming from you. By well-credentialed I meant, well, well-credentialed! Such as having a Ph.D. or some relevant education and very substantial work experience in macroeconomics. And I presented you with a list of very prominent, well-credentialed conservative economists, including Bush's own top economists, so your comparison of those quoted on my list to some supposed conspiracy or universal bias among scientists on climate change is mind-bogglingly STUPID, period.

And are you associating me with "the left wing"?? On what basis??

You really should stop making an ass of yourself.

………… parent

Yes, that is what the left means by "well credentialed" ...

in the context of the so called global warming consensus as well. The problem is that there are "well credentialed" (by that definition) scientists who disagree with that so called consensus. The difference is that when you disagree your credentials don't seem to matter anymore and you are just a crack pot.

This is the same exact thing you are trying to pull with the almost uniform agreement BS for well credentialed economists. The problem is that, without even looking up one thing, I will predict that I can come up with a "well-credentialed" economist who disagrees with your "almost uniform agreement", and if I were to expend the energy to do so that you would promptly try to label them a crack pot.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

I notice you haven't

I notice you haven't presented the supposed "substantial body of work" supporting your contention.

You also haven't answered my question as to why you associated me with the "left wing" on this matter or in general.

Perhaps you'll do so, but I won't hold my breath.

………… parent

I don't recall claiming to even have ...

a "substantial body of work" supporting my contention. You can have a bazzilion monkeys typing "1 + 1 = 3" a bazzilion times each to create a "substantial body of work" but that doesn't make it any more correct. :)

As for the "left wing" thing, I am not associating you with the "left wing". I am comparing the style of your assertion regarding the "almost uniform agreement between well credentialed economists" to the that of the "left wing" and using their position on the so called global warming consensus as an example.

The point being that your assertion regarding economists is about as logically sound as theirs is regrading climate science.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Re: "substantial body of

………… parent

Consensus

The problem is that there are "well credentialed" (by that definition) scientists who disagree with that so called consensus.

consensus : majority of opinion

not

consensus: absolute uniformity of opinion

So regarding scientists who disagree... no kidding. Doesn't change the fact that there is a consensus.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

And here's some reading for

And here's some reading for you re: the implausibility of solving our fiscal imbalance problem solely on the spending side, as opposed to a combination approach including increases in taxation: WSJ article:

Lifting taxes sufficiently to pay promised Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security benefits would be economically and politically dangerous; reducing future benefits to current tax levels -- while arithmetically possible -- is, at the very least, politically impossible. Voters wouldn't stand for it. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120719284383885607.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

From the American Enterprise Institute:

The three long-term realities are these. First, the middle class will unavoidably bear much of the burden of addressing the long-run fiscal imbalance that we face, whether that imbalance is addressed through entitlement restraint or through tax increases. Second, federal revenue will rise as a share of GDP because the American people will not accept the entitlement restraint that would be required to prevent that development... The rise in federal revenue that I am predicting is not mathematically necessary. Last year, federal revenue was almost 19 percent of GDP, slightly higher than its historical average. If entitlement spending were to remain at its current share of GDP, there would be no need for revenue increases. Under CBO's extended baseline scenario, however, the big three entitlements--Social security, Medicare, and Medicaid--are slated to grow from eight percent of GDP today to 18 percent in 2050. So, keeping these entitlements at a fixed share of GDP would mean cutting them by more than half from their baseline trajectories. Entitlement restraint of that type would be very good for long-run GDP growth, although it might be less desirable in other respects. Whether or not I support that approach, however, the American people do not. In the 2004 Brookings Papers on Economic Activity, Alan Blinder, along with Alan Kruger, reported public opinion survey results on how to correct the long-run Social security deficit. A mere five percent favored relying mainly on benefit cuts; many of us in this group undoubtedly work at the American Enterprise Institute and other conservative think tanks. In contrast, 30 percent favored relying mainly on payroll tax increases and 34 percent favored a mix of payroll tax increases and benefit cuts. There would surely be even less support for benefit cuts as the main response to the much larger Medicare/ Medicaid imbalance. Given these attitudes, it is fantasy to think that the fiscal imbalance will be addressed solely through entitlement restraint. It is not surprising that progressive price indexation attracted so little support in 2005. The battle will be between exclusive reliance on tax increases and the much preferable alternative of a mix of tax increases and entitlement restraint. Either way, though, revenue will rise as a share of GDP. http://www.aei.org/publications/filter.all,pubID.28129/pub_detail.asp

Greg Mankiw, economics professor at Harvard, former chairman of President Bush's Council of Economic Advisers:

Although the fiscal gap could be completely closed with reduced spending, a realistic political compromise will likely include higher revenues as well. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB114903947794967067.html?mod=opinion_main...

Others quoted on the subject in December, 2005 NYT article:

"The current trend points to tax increases in the long run," said Brian M. Riedl, lead budget analyst at the Heritage Foundation, a conservative research group opposed to raising taxes. "The political will to make the difficult decisions on spending is lacking." Bruce Bartlett, a leader of the supply-side tax revolution who worked as an economic aide to President Reagan and the first President Bush, has turned on the current president in a coming book, "The Impostor: How George W. Bush Bankrupted America and Betrayed the Reagan Legacy," excoriating what he sees as the government's spending spree over the last five years. Mr. Bartlett, a conservative economic thinker who for years argued that cutting taxes was the best way to "starve the beast" and restrain government's growth, now recommends the introduction of a value-added tax - a kind of sales tax used in Europe and most other advanced industrial nations - to bring in the large amounts of new revenue he deems necessary to close the enormous budget gap. "I do believe tax increases are absolutely inevitable," Mr. Bartlett said. [skip] Beyond the arithmetic difficulties, political complications cloud the prospects for closing the budget deficit with spending cuts. The resistance encountered by the Republican leadership in Congress when it tried to pass a package of spending cuts in November underscored how politically difficult it has become to reduce spending and extend tax cuts at the same time. Peter R. Orszag, a fellow in economic studies at the liberal-leaning Brookings Institution, said the tax cuts enacted since 2001 have produced a loss in revenue equivalent to a full 2 percent of all economic activity, or about $250 billion a year in today's dollars. Ending them would fill much of the near-term budget deficit. "Doing all the deficit reduction on the spending side is implausible," Mr. Orszag said. "Like most things in life, a balance is required."

As a note, a couple of the pieces in the above anticipate and/or advocate new types of taxes and/or increases in taxes other than the income tax or reduction/elimination of deductions.

[edit below, 10/17/08]

GAO's January, 2007 LONG-TERM BUDGET OUTLOOK by Comptroller David Walker states explicitly and emphatically that it is unrealistic to expect that our long-term fiscal imbalance will be solved either solely on the spending side or solely on the revenue side. 
 
See page 14, the section entitled "Meeting the Long-Term Fiscal Challenge Requires Action on the Spending and Tax Sides of the Budget -- Cooperation and Compromise Will Be Necessary"
 
In addition to stressing the need to reduce projected spending, this section states:
 
Economic growth is essential, but we will not be able to simply grow our way out of the problem. The numbers speak loudly: our projected fiscal gap is simply too great. To “grow our way out” of the current long-term fiscal gap would require sustained economic growth far beyond that experienced in U.S. economic history since World War II.
 
 
Similarly, those who believe we can solve this problem solely by cutting spending or solely raising taxes are not being realistic...
 
given demographic and health care cost trends, the size of the spending cuts necessary to hold revenues at today’s share of GDP seems implausible. It is not realistic to assume we can remain at 18.2 percent of GDP—we will need more revenues. Obviously we want to minimize the tax burden on the American people and we want to remain competitive with other industrial nations—but in the end the numbers have to add up.
 
...we will need more revenues...
 
...Delay only makes matters worse.
………… parent

Well, entitlement reform will come

I'm sure of it. I don't know when or how but it will.

SS may or may not need reform in the near to mid future depending on whose estimates we look at.

And Medicare, like SS, is funded through FICA and not federal income taxes. Therefore, the sustaining of current federal income tax levels has nothing to do with unfunded promises of either program if such unfunded promises exist...and we know they do for Medicare.

So, to keep funding for these programs intact, changes are going to have to be made to FICA and/or eligibility.

………… parent

Nope. First of all, I

Nope.

First of all, I thought your point was that it is unrealistic to think that lower taxation overall would lead to lower growth.

But in any case, you are missing the big picture, in terms of both economics and politics, and particularly the latter. Money is ultimately fungible. Shortfalls in revenues vs. desired (even if "desired" by default, in the case of entitlements) spending for say, Medicare, may not be made up via FICA, but by supplementation via Income taxes. Same with Social Security. If entitlement costs rise as projected, or even rise as much as could be assumed with a realistic assumption of cuts in benefits/eligibility and gains in efficiency (mainly in healthcare), it is certainly far from certain (and I'd say doubtful) that all that our political process would result in that extra spending being paid for entirely via increases in FICA taxes, given that that would mean exempting capital gains and dividend income completely, and those forms of income are associated more with "the rich", and given that that would mean funding all that spending via a non-progressive tax (even if the SS FICA cap were lifted), given that the same tax rate applies to $10 million of annual income as it does to $20,000. (And if FICA were made progressive via income brackets and no income cap applied, it would be essentially just another income tax like our current one, although more inclusive of low-income earners and so less progressive)

………… parent

Sorry BR

I mispoke earlier.

I was always and am still referring to the question of the expiration or permanency of the Bush Tax cuts and not "lower taxes" in a general sense. Sorry if my language was sloppy.

From there I make no excuses for fungibility of money. I'm missing nothing. Don't worry.

………… parent

Obama's

#7 is Florida electoral votes.

Sic semper tyrannis

…………

Interesting lists

Quite frankly if those are the worst ideas from both of them I think we're in good shape, especially since many of those ideas would never become policy.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

…………

Here's something I would add

Here's something I would add to each list:

Obama:
An essentially fixed timetable for withdrawing from Iraq regardless of conditions on the ground, the anticipated outlook for withdrawing per the timetable vs. delaying it, or whether or not the Iraqis are making progress on key benchmarks (e.g., political reconciliation via an oil revenue-sharing deal, etc.) conducive to sustainable stability and other desirable conditions.

McCain:
An essentially unconditional, open-ended commitment to continue our full military presence and mission in Iraq regardless of whether or not the Iraqis are making progress on the aforementioned benchmarks.

Why bad ideas?
Because due to their partisan primary pandering, neither has taken the common sense approach of making our continued commitment available, but contingent upon the Iraqis making progress on key benchmarks.

My diaries/comments on this topic (as "BrooksRob")
4/29/07 diary:
http://www.redstate.com/blogs/brooksrob/2007/apr/29/iraq_strategy_a_sens...

8/2/07 diary:
http://www.redstate.com/blogs/brooksrob/2007/aug/02/a_common_sense_iraq_...

8/8/07 comments beginning with this one:
http://archive.redstate.com/blogs/mediahawk/2007/aug/08/the_nightmare_th...

…………

And neither is real

Like you say:

Pandering.

What will really happen is another matter.

………… parent