Tuesday Open Thread

"Rubico" has been named: David Kernell . Mr. Kernell is the son of Tennessee legislator Mike Kernell. Mike has disavowed all knowledge of his son's "hacking session" which consisted of using public information to circumvent the "I forgot my password" functionality of Gov. Palin's Yahoo! email account.

Some voters in Virginia, Kentucky, and Georgia have already cast their ballots. Early voting has already begun in these states and others (including the best state ever -- Ohio) start next week.

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Wall Street as a Spoiled Rotten

Out of Control Teenager.

As much as I am personally disgusted by my teenager's very very bad behavior, of writing so many bad checks, we have to realize that he is still a part of the family.

This 700bil bailout isn't close to enough to cover the badly leveraged paper.

It's a money crime, yet we had reassurances from Daddy Hank that everything was fine.

We can say, serves those rich guys right. Screw them. But if we do then we could end up losing our shirts if we don't bail bad teen out. (I confess I would like to beat bad teenager senseless.)

The best solution is a bailout (hoping it works) and to get everyone in the family a good job so they can help pay off the new price tag of $5thou/ head on every US citizen. Maybe put bad teen to work in the soup kitchens for a couple of years, so he can understand the consequences of his actions.

What a bitter bill we have to swallow.

Why is it always 'the smartest guys' in the room that end up being so incredibly stupid.

It is the economy, stupid.

…………

I was watching CNBC this morning

And one of their "senior" correspondents was ridiculing the members of the Senate Banking Committee for speaking -- he called it "playing politics" -- at the start of this morning's hearing with Paulson and Bernanke.

These people seem to think that Congress should just rubber stamp this bailout -- which BTW is no longer being called a Wall Street Bailout Plan, it's now the American Rescue Plan -- and shut up and go away.

As far as I'm concerned those senators better damn well ask questions and demand answers. This is actually a rare moment when I agree with one of the Republican senators from my state. Richard Shelby is opposed to the bailout.

What is going on right now is blackmail, pure and simple -- either approve this plan or the economy collapses. We may very well have to approve the plan, but the people who got us in this position need to pay the heaviest price.

qui tacet consentire

………… parent

I have a premonition

that this is all being set up to channel a huge chunk of the bailout offshore and just letting the things fall where they may.

I really am glad I thought ahead 5 years ago and none of it is going to affect me much at this time.

Sic semper tyrannis

………… parent

We have to approve the plan

I believe.

But no way no how without some conditions.

They don't want us to see this stuff. Why? I think where the 'assests' have been shipped might tell a very interesting tale.

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

We can't possibly approve the plan!

with this clause in it.

Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency.

What don't they want anyone to see?

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

Yes.....

this whole thing is making me schizophrenic.

To support America, I better go shopping! ;-l

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

Great.

Call them up and tell them to vote it down.

I'd do it myself but I'm busy. ;)

………… parent

I'm hopeful. It appears that Congress may NOT pass the

$700 B bailout bill that bush43 is pushing.

Why am I hopeful? I don't like the bill, and conservatives have come out against the bill. Now that doesn't mean folks can't be bought. That is how Washington seems to work but when I hear both the right & the left complaining about many of the same aspects of the proposed bill, it leaves me with hope.

Honestly, I hope this isn't passed this week in any form. While I think we need to address the concerns of the Securities Industry, throwing money at them by buying the bad paper they created isn't my idea of a good use of taxpayer money, and let's be clear about this. The way it's structured by the Executive branch, there will be no oversight, there will be no addressing how Wall Street got here and only the big boys will make out like bandits. We the taxpayers will be left holding the (ever expanding) tab.

We need to do something but we need to take the time to address it properly. False deadlines are how this Administration pushes it's BS on the rest of us. One week is a false goalpost. Since this election time, I'm not sure anything can be done properly right now. Too many interests will try to play this out purely for spin & election gotchas. Something of this magnitude needs to be addressed with prudence & reasoning, not emotional bluster & angst.

…………

My take

is that the left and right wings of both parties will end up voting down whatever bill makes it to the floor while the moderates will be enough to pass it.

It will truely be a bipartisan bill.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

My point was that rushing it screws us the taxpayers.

Something of this magnitude can be left for a month to discuss, negotiate & do it right. There is no need to have it done yesterday.

Wow. Even the Great Orange Satan himself is against the current bill & CEO pay limitations. Wonder when RedState comes out & supports Markos. That'll be the day.

………… parent

Are you really sure it can wait a month?

The US entire financial system appears on the brink of implosion. If that happens it will certainly take the larger economy with it.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Yes. (n/t)

………… parent

I'm not so sure.

You might be right, but the system has taken some damn big hits. The people of wallstreet are basically cattle- stupid and dominated by herd instincts. Right now there's a fire on the horizon. If they get a good whiff of smoke they'll panic and the resulting stampede will cause way more damage than the fire ever might have.

That's really what this bill is to head off- the self destructive idiocy of investors.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

if it can't last a month, then it can't be saved

If the system implodes with so little warning, then we have no chance at rescuing it. Even if intervention manages to stabilize it for now, there is no reason to expect this to "fix" the system -- it will just implode in 10 years, or 10 years after that.

I think it's Wall Street's panic has spread to Congress.

"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was made a man." --Frederick Douglas

………… parent

There are points of no return

I used the stampede allusion very deliberatively. A stampede is pretty much impossible to stop once started but easy to stop before hand. A critical mass of panic has to be reached, but once it is you;re screwed. It is quite possible that we'd pass that mass within a month. Or maybe we won't. I'm not sure.

As for warning I think we've had quite a bit of warning really. In the last year we've had a number of very troubling economic signs.

I don;t disagree that this is a stop gap measure. But that's what we have. if it delays enough to let us manage the issue in an intelligent fashion then that's a good trade.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

As much as I am against it....

..you're right.

The market needs it's confidence restored.

One way or the other, a definitive move must be made.

All that will happen by waiting is it would get loaded up with pork!

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


………… parent

Pork

stuffed with more pork. How fitting. And all the little piggies are already anxious at the troth. :) Can't disappoint any of them.

Sic semper tyrannis

………… parent

I don't know...

..Repblicans are balking.

Maybe there is hope after all!

Richard Shelby, the top Republican on the Senate banking committee,
warned “we could very well spend $700bn and not resolve the crisis”. He
called on the US to exhaust “all reasonable alternatives” before
committing itself to the plan.

Elizabeth Dole of North Carolina
said: “I am very sceptical of this proposal and am extremely frustrated
that we find ourselves in this position.” Jim Bunning of Kentucky
added: “This massive bail-out is not the solution, it is financial
socialism, it is un-American.”

 

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


………… parent

Being

a vindictive SOB, I like the German take on this situation:

...in the long run, those responsible for the crisis -- who have been cashed out with high salaries and bonuses for years -- will not be penalized for billions "but will be let off the hook like everyone else," says Carsten Meier of the Kiel Institute for the World Economy (IfW). According to Meier, by injecting capital into the market, the US government is putting everyone who speculated and lost back on their feet and thereby standing in the way of a market cleanup.

'The World Shouldn't Have to Bear the Burden for America's Lapses'

Sic semper tyrannis

………… parent

I've heard snortings

that simply changing mark to market rules, would magically bring more of the desired liquidity or capital into the system. They could postpone valuing the bad assets and it would take a lot of pressure off the bottom line.

That sounds a hell of a lot better than raiding the US treasury.

I still think there is foreign pressure from other institutions that is not being mentioned in this debate.

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

accounting vs. regulation

The Economist has an article on this, basically arguing that accounting rules (mark-to-market) should not be modified to serve regulatory purposes . Accounting is supposed to give investors a clear view of the status of the corporation, and regulatory rules should be structured so that they don't create stupid side-effects when based on good accounting standards.

"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was made a man." --Frederick Douglas

………… parent

McCain's advisors say they are discouraging Israeli/Syrian peace

While it is refreshing to see such candor, I think these folks & McCain by proxy are idiots:

" Two McCain advisers told participants in a weekend retreat that his administration would discourage Israeli-Syrian peace talks and refrain from actively engaging in the Israeli-Palestinian peace process.

A McCain administration would discourage Israeli-Syrian peace talks and refrain from actively engaging in the Israeli-Palestinian peace process.

That was the message delivered over the weekend by two McCain advisers -- Max Boot, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, and Richard Williamson, the Bush administration's special envoy to Sudan -- during a retreat hosted by the Washington Institute for Near East Policy at the Lansdowne Resort in rural Virginia."

Just wait till half the stuff Max Boot has written hits the media. We'll be seein' Steve Schmidt cry like a baby on national TV about how unfair the MSM is.

…………

Peace is such a 90s concept

qui tacet consentire

………… parent

Yeah it was a peaceful decade allright

Certain countries do seem to come to mind - Rwanda, Bosnia, Serbia, Iraq, Kuwait - a great time of peace that's for sure.

………… parent

You don't like peace? WWJD?

I'd love to see peace between the Israelis, the Syrians & the Palestinians.

Suggesting anyone not pursue negotiations for peace is....is somewhat evil.

Now I'm not saying McCain is in league with Satan....maybe they are just f***buddies, that's all.

………… parent

What would "Stonewall" Jackson do?

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

Stonewall Jackson is one of my favorites!

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


………… parent

If you make peace with them they aren't your enemies, right?

Or am I missing something?

………… parent

I'd like a miracle too...

...but generations of hate between the Israelis and Palestinians is hardly to say JM does not wish it too.

And yes, you miss most everything!

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


………… parent

Dude...it was John McCains's people that asked the Israelis

not to have peace talks with they Syrians...Are you blind in addition to not caring? See the link. That's your boy who doesn't want peace.

………… parent

Ya sure, right Kindness-JM doesn't want peace...WHATEVER?

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


………… parent

Danzig....would take the opposite approach.

When will the first kid wear a shirt to school that reads "Obama is a Jews best friend"

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

Tlaloc's 1st rule of News

Any day in which Pakistan appear in a headline is a bad day.

ISLAMABAD, PAKISTAN -- More than any other terrorist attack in this volatile country, the devastating truck bombing of the Marriott Hotel over the weekend has presented government and military leaders here with a stark choice: Go all out against extremists or risk the nation's collapse into chaos.

That is the growing consensus among many Pakistani analysts and commentators, who fear that without rapid, determined and ironfisted action by officials and security forces, this nuclear-armed land is in danger of becoming a failed state, with Islamic radicals in control.

Q.E.D.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

…………

Everyone wants in on the Mother of All Bailouts

LONDON (MarketWatch) -- Automobile-finance companies lead a growing list of liquidity-starved industries trying to get in on the huge government rescue plan targeted originally at cleaning up bad mortgage bets, The Wall Street Journal reported, citing a lobbyist for one of the Big Three automakers. Other businesses, such as student and credit-card lenders, also could eventually access the program, the newspaper said. To permit that, House and Senate versions of the bill written overnight -- with lobbyist input -- now include language broadening the types of assets eligible for sale under the plan, from "mortgage-related" to "troubled assets," the report said.

Link

qui tacet consentire

…………

What took so long?

UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - The global financial crisis endangers efforts to reduce world poverty and demands a new approach with less "uncritical faith in the 'magic' of markets," U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon said on Tuesday

No ^%$&, Sherlock. The question is why it took you so long to notice.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

…………

Barack Obama: more realistic about his plans for future spending

Democrat Barack Obama said today that the massive bailout package being
negotiated to rescue Wall Street will likely force him, if elected, to
delay some of the spending programs he has advocated on the campaign
trail.

Noting that the Treasury Department would not disperse all the funds
immediately from a proposed $700 billion bailout package, Obama
acknowledged that some of his proposals for health care and education
reform, improvement to the nation's infrastructure and investment in a
new "green" energy sector might have to be phased in.

"Does that mean I can do everything that I've called for in this
campaign right away? Probably not," he said on NBC's "Today." "I think
we're going to have to phase it in. And a lot of it's going to depend
on what our tax revenues look like."

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-campaign24-2008sep24,0,7980532.story

This is a small step on the path toward fiscal sanity. Now, I'd like to see both candidates revisit their tax plans and level with the American people.  The numbers just don't add up.

…………

That's good to see...

But neither's plan really added up before the crisis either.

………… parent

You're right-- they never added up to start with

The "plans" rely on optimistic projections and nebulous promises of eliminating waste and closing loopholes.  But the last major party presidential candidate that levelled with the American People on taxes and spending was Walter Mondale, and he lost 49 of 50 states. The lesson was learned: avoid frank and honest discussions on taxes and spending in your campaign.

I really think that Perot showed the way to get around this: unveil out the pie charts, break it down for the American People in pictures.  But no major candidate has learned that lesson.

 

………… parent

Quote of the Day:

Steve Horwtiz says :

The current crisis demonstrates more than almost anything in recent memory what I call "Horwitz's First Law of Political Economy": namely that "no one hates capitalism more than capitalists." Aside from the fact, much discussed here, that the crisis itself was largely brought on by easy money policies and government interventions supported by and benefiting capitalists even as they were undermining capitalism as a system and the well-being of the citizenry, the debate over the bailouts also illustrates the principle quite well.... capitalists prefer the stability and predictability of the known over anything unknown, especially when it promises to socialize their losses on the rest of us. Capitalists have long despised the uncertainty and unpredictability of a truly free market and have frequently succeeded at using the state to reduce that uncertainty (see also Gabriel Kolko and other historians of the Progressive Era). Of course this has benefited them, but it has harmed the economy and the citizenry in the process.

…………

DOH

friggin, OH!
Give this man a cookie!

Sic semper tyrannis

………… parent

Horwitz is one of my favorite bloggers

and a top-notch economist.

He's definitely one of the better libertarian writers out there right now.

………… parent

He might as well be

but I don't find the idea that "no one hates capitalism more than capitalists." original enough to claim it as his own original thought.

Sic semper tyrannis

………… parent

it may not be original

but it sure is a very misunderstood and unappreciated thought.

………… parent

I saw that line as a sarcastic one liner on how we're dealing...

..with this situation, and situations like this.

Do you read more into it John?

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


………… parent

what do you mean?

please clarify.

………… parent

Just wondered if you saw his statement as something...

...of a wider context than I had suggested?

but it sure is a very misunderstood and unappreciated thought. 

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


………… parent

whose statement?

………… parent

LOL! Nevermind, the moments passed... ;-)

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


………… parent

In Defense of Capitalism...

The economy of the United States is not a pure capitalist system. We
operate economically under what economists like to call a "mixed
system". This is a system that combines elements of a market economy
with elements of a planned economy. It is because of this mixed
economic approach that Treasury Secretary Paulson and Federal Reserve
Chairman Ben Bernanke determined that it was within their authority to
nationalize Freddie, Fannie, and AIG in the name of stabilizing the
financial markets. In a purely capitalist system , these bailouts would
have been impossible. Quite frankly, the crisis that caused those
bailouts to happen in the first place would not have happened if we
were a pure capitalist country.

Throwing out accusations and speaking in vague generalities is easy. That is what politicians do all the time. So instead, let's look at some examples of where capitalism has been blamed for a crisis that the politicians actually started. We have all heard about the greed and lack of regulation that caused the savings and loan crisis of the 1980s. But, it is never mentioned by the politicians how the crisis came to be in the first place. For that we go back to the year of my birth, 1964. Lyndon Johnson, the patron saint of the welfare/ warfare state, had just begun to rebuild that institution on our shores. With the passage of his so called "Great Society" and increased funding for a military conflict in Southeast Asia, the United States government, through the Federal Reserve Bank, printed money over and above the limit mandated by the gold reserves held by the government at the time. By the late 1960s, foreign holders of U.S. dollars, realizing that their asset would soon be worth much less, demanded, as they were entitled to, an exchange of their devalued dollars for American gold. The hemorrhaging of U.S. gold reserves that ensued was so great that Richard Nixon closed the gold window in 1971 to prevent a default. He effectively opened the door to future wild spending by Uncle Sam.

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


………… parent

Yes.

But keep in mind, RW that Horwitz, nor any other libertarian would ever attack capitalism per se. What they attack and what I loathe are the attempts to control capitalism under the euphemism of protecting people and promoting stability.

It's, more than not, simply a crock to protect certain business interests.

The greater degree of free markets, the more brutal the consequences can be for individual risk takers. Market discipline is great for the economy but can be a bitter pill for capitalists....especially larger ones with more to lose.

………… parent

Indeed...

...attempts to control capitalism under the euphemism of protecting people and promoting stability.

Precisely the vain in which I submitted the post.

Market discipline is great for the economy but can be a bitter pill for capitalists....especially larger ones with more to lose.

Had we maintained unfettered market conditions, or anything like it, we would not have these symptoms to digest.

I'm very concerned, like you, that we have turned a corner in the US that will be very difficult to undo.

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


………… parent

In a Purely Capitalist System?

Why wax poetic about a system that will not come to fruition? When someone talks about a purely [ insert economic system here] it's easy to turn off what follows because we will never reach such a system. Supporters of communist and socialist systems discount examples of these systems in practice because people aren't perfectly rational. Similarly, a purely capitalist system won't work either, because it will leave those who do not have the drive to compete out in the cold.

No economic system can be implemented and practiced in its "purest" form. Especially not here.

http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678
Brawl: 2277-7051-2186

………… parent

You mean like in all of nature?

Similarly, a purely capitalist system won't work either, because it will leave those who do not have the drive to compete out in the cold.

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


………… parent

Sorry, let me be clearer...

A purely capitalist system will definitely leave some people out. And to answer your question..yeah. But you'd also agree I hope that a purely capitalist system only exists in the books and never in practice. There is no wealth distribution in a purely capitalist system--sounds great in theory I know, but common sense will tell you that at this point in society, a mixed economy is where we're probably going to be.

http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678
Brawl: 2277-7051-2186

………… parent

Yes but...

When talking with liberals one quickly finds "Mixed" is subjective, and soon means something all together different than Capitalism with roads, clean water, etc. which would leave overall markets free to operate.

It is the far reaching social engineering sort of wealth distribution that is at the heart of the matter.

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


………… parent

I agree...

Mixed is indeed subjective, and I think that in many cases, like "pork projects," no federal re-distribution should be done on projects states should be paying for themselves. However, that only applies to about 1% of federal spending. Entitlement spending, education spending, and military spending covers a large portion of federal spending and no one seems to act like a grown up and take the knife to what's really out of control.

Both Democrats emotional arguments (cuts to Social Security and Medicare will kill grandma) and Republicans (cuts to Military spending will lead to mushroom clouds in our cities) are both wildly overstating their cases to keep the biggest drain on our economy intact.

http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678
Brawl: 2277-7051-2186

………… parent

Uh Oh...Red Wing is now advocating evolution and stuff.

Capitalistic Darwinism......Good in concept, bad when they try to teach it in schools.....

………… parent

Life's been so nice since we've parted ways....

...please go play your shell games elsewhere...

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


………… parent

Finally the Kurtz article is released...

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


…………

And we all know...

... that Obama will hire Ayers, Farrakhan, and Wright directly into office as soon as he is sworn in, implementing Marxist-socio-communist policies and black-power meetings at noon on Wednesdays at Camp David. Because whoever you're associated with will definitely impact your policies once you're elected to higher office. Now if you'll excuse me, I have a People for the Raising Of Luxurious Estate Taxes In America Today (P.R.O.L.E.T.A.R.I.A.T.) meeting to get to...Power to the people!

*Raises fist*

*plays the old Soviet National Anthem*

http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678
Brawl: 2277-7051-2186

………… parent

Nice...

Is that final answer? Cause it's pretty lame!

This is Obama, he is what he is. But when faced with the FACTS of his life, what he's done and how he really thinks, this is the kind of response one gets?

All you live on his promises? Promises that he will not do what he always has, that he is misunderstood time after time after time, that was then this is now, forget my record and listen to my words!

And you do?

Sad?

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


………… parent

My apologies..

You wanted a serious response to the assertion that Obama is who he hangs out with. I'll try.

At this point, I don't care. Show me a President in recent history that has governed based on his record or what he says he'll do if elected.

Bush was a lot more moderate as Gov of Texas than he has been in office, especially on social issues. McCain has over 26 years in federally elected office and has built a large record on certain policies that he has decided in the past 2-3 months are "not his."

I fear McCain is too impetuous to be President, who will make rash, "unblinking" decisions when someone upsets him. I'll take the inexperienced guy over the guy who "knows everything" and will keep things going the same way we are now.

I have problems with Obama. He is like the "typical politican" but I do not think he is as liberal as you make it (probably based on that faulty National Journal study). I don't believe that his past associations in Chicago will spill over into the way he governs--he's probably doing the same thing that McCain did in his past--using organizations to get the name recognition and power alliances he needs to get into power. Plus, Obama at least seems to use his head and not his "gut" on major decisions we all have to live with.

Since both of them have some shady people in their past, I give them both credit that said people and organizations won't influence them much. McCain's style as of recently has turned me off, and he's not acting like a grown-up.

http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678
Brawl: 2277-7051-2186

………… parent

Obama's roots are a valid clue to his true views.

Who Obama relied on to get elected in the past provides as good a barometer as any we have available for him on what he really thinks. The people who supported him from the start did not do so against their own interests, so their interests must have been his interests ... at least at the time.

Has he changed those interests? Perhaps, but we have no evidence of that available so the cautious bet is to assume that he hasn't since that fundamental of a change is rare.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

When Barack Obama met Bill Ayers, Ayers was a respected

college professor and board member of a local charity that Barack also was asked to sit on.

RESPECTED college professor. CHARITY BOARD MEMBER. What is it about that that Obama should be ashamed of? How might someone like that reflect poorly on a person?

We aren't talking about Bill Ayers, 60's weatherman. We're talking Bill Ayers, 80's,90's respected & productive citizen.

Now I see that some of you want to take it to a place that is absurd so I'll leave this with:

Jesus of Nazareth hung out with prostitutes, the poor & ex tax collectors. Jesus of Nazareth liked to knock stuff around in Temple. Jesus turned water into wine and gave it to the poor whom he was talking to.

………… parent

Respected? By who? The liberal acedemic establishment...

...made up of 60's radicals?

Gee?

Because the average American does not respect bill ayers any more than charles manson or the unibomber!

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


………… parent

You don't speak for the "average American".

Neither does your buddy Rush, not unless you mean the Canadian Rock band Rush.

………… parent

Whatever...You're an idiot! (Speaking for myself of course!)

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


………… parent

Re-read the posting rules

Especially:

* Be reasonably civil.
* Do not consistently abuse or vilify other posters.

"You're an idiot" is bad.

Attack ideas, not posters.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

Thanks.

………… parent

Your ideas are idiotic!

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


………… parent

Much better

Carry on. And you two be on good behavior.

I start a temp job tomorrow, so I won't be around as much.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

Oh nice, congrats on your J - O - B!

"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman


………… parent

Bah

Its a temp job for a factory in my hometown (which is now a 40min drive from Sandusky). It'll have to do for now.

*Brutus, they put me at MTD on line 3.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

You wanna moderate - Do it consistently.

Kindness has crossed that line on SO many occasions.

The continual forthcoming of intellectual flatuence from Kindness in the midst of civil discourse is nauseating.

Granted I got caught up in it, but I have made a sincere, deliberate effort to avoid such silliness of late.

Yet here we are, having a nice day, talking about whatever, and in comes a windbag of foul smelling declamatory leaving a trail of putrid remnant wherever it goes.

I ask Kindness to go their separate way, but Kindness declines.

If it continues