Tuesday Open Thread
"Rubico" has been named: David Kernell . Mr. Kernell is the son of Tennessee legislator Mike Kernell. Mike has disavowed all knowledge of his son's "hacking session" which consisted of using public information to circumvent the "I forgot my password" functionality of Gov. Palin's Yahoo! email account.
Some voters in Virginia, Kentucky, and Georgia have already cast their ballots. Early voting has already begun in these states and others (including the best state ever -- Ohio) start next week.
Submitted by stinerman on Tue, 2008-09-23 07:27
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Comments :
Wall Street as a Spoiled Rotten
Out of Control Teenager.
As much as I am personally disgusted by my teenager's very very bad behavior, of writing so many bad checks, we have to realize that he is still a part of the family.
This 700bil bailout isn't close to enough to cover the badly leveraged paper.
It's a money crime, yet we had reassurances from Daddy Hank that everything was fine.
We can say, serves those rich guys right. Screw them. But if we do then we could end up losing our shirts if we don't bail bad teen out. (I confess I would like to beat bad teenager senseless.)
The best solution is a bailout (hoping it works) and to get everyone in the family a good job so they can help pay off the new price tag of $5thou/ head on every US citizen. Maybe put bad teen to work in the soup kitchens for a couple of years, so he can understand the consequences of his actions.
What a bitter bill we have to swallow.
Why is it always 'the smartest guys' in the room that end up being so incredibly stupid.
It is the economy, stupid.
I was watching CNBC this morning
And one of their "senior" correspondents was ridiculing the members of the Senate Banking Committee for speaking -- he called it "playing politics" -- at the start of this morning's hearing with Paulson and Bernanke.
These people seem to think that Congress should just rubber stamp this bailout -- which BTW is no longer being called a Wall Street Bailout Plan, it's now the American Rescue Plan -- and shut up and go away.
As far as I'm concerned those senators better damn well ask questions and demand answers. This is actually a rare moment when I agree with one of the Republican senators from my state. Richard Shelby is opposed to the bailout.
What is going on right now is blackmail, pure and simple -- either approve this plan or the economy collapses. We may very well have to approve the plan, but the people who got us in this position need to pay the heaviest price.
qui tacet consentire
I have a premonition
that this is all being set up to channel a huge chunk of the bailout offshore and just letting the things fall where they may.
I really am glad I thought ahead 5 years ago and none of it is going to affect me much at this time.
Sic semper tyrannis
We have to approve the plan
I believe.
But no way no how without some conditions.
They don't want us to see this stuff. Why? I think where the 'assests' have been shipped might tell a very interesting tale.
It is the economy, stupid.
We can't possibly approve the plan!
with this clause in it.
What don't they want anyone to see?
It is the economy, stupid.
Yes.....
this whole thing is making me schizophrenic.
To support America, I better go shopping! ;-l
It is the economy, stupid.
Great.
Call them up and tell them to vote it down.
I'd do it myself but I'm busy. ;)
I'm hopeful. It appears that Congress may NOT pass the
$700 B bailout bill that bush43 is pushing.
Why am I hopeful? I don't like the bill, and conservatives have come out against the bill. Now that doesn't mean folks can't be bought. That is how Washington seems to work but when I hear both the right & the left complaining about many of the same aspects of the proposed bill, it leaves me with hope.
Honestly, I hope this isn't passed this week in any form. While I think we need to address the concerns of the Securities Industry, throwing money at them by buying the bad paper they created isn't my idea of a good use of taxpayer money, and let's be clear about this. The way it's structured by the Executive branch, there will be no oversight, there will be no addressing how Wall Street got here and only the big boys will make out like bandits. We the taxpayers will be left holding the (ever expanding) tab.
We need to do something but we need to take the time to address it properly. False deadlines are how this Administration pushes it's BS on the rest of us. One week is a false goalpost. Since this election time, I'm not sure anything can be done properly right now. Too many interests will try to play this out purely for spin & election gotchas. Something of this magnitude needs to be addressed with prudence & reasoning, not emotional bluster & angst.
My take
is that the left and right wings of both parties will end up voting down whatever bill makes it to the floor while the moderates will be enough to pass it.
It will truely be a bipartisan bill.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
My point was that rushing it screws us the taxpayers.
Something of this magnitude can be left for a month to discuss, negotiate & do it right. There is no need to have it done yesterday.
Wow. Even the Great Orange Satan
himself is against the current bill & CEO pay limitations. Wonder when RedState comes out & supports Markos. That'll be the day.
Are you really sure it can wait a month?
The US entire financial system appears on the brink of implosion. If that happens it will certainly take the larger economy with it.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Yes. (n/t)
I'm not so sure.
You might be right, but the system has taken some damn big hits. The people of wallstreet are basically cattle- stupid and dominated by herd instincts. Right now there's a fire on the horizon. If they get a good whiff of smoke they'll panic and the resulting stampede will cause way more damage than the fire ever might have.
That's really what this bill is to head off- the self destructive idiocy of investors.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
if it can't last a month, then it can't be saved
If the system implodes with so little warning, then we have no chance at rescuing it. Even if intervention manages to stabilize it for now, there is no reason to expect this to "fix" the system -- it will just implode in 10 years, or 10 years after that.
I think it's Wall Street's panic has spread to Congress.
"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was made a man." --Frederick Douglas
There are points of no return
I used the stampede allusion very deliberatively. A stampede is pretty much impossible to stop once started but easy to stop before hand. A critical mass of panic has to be reached, but once it is you;re screwed. It is quite possible that we'd pass that mass within a month. Or maybe we won't. I'm not sure.
As for warning I think we've had quite a bit of warning really. In the last year we've had a number of very troubling economic signs.
I don;t disagree that this is a stop gap measure. But that's what we have. if it delays enough to let us manage the issue in an intelligent fashion then that's a good trade.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
As much as I am against it....
..you're right.
The market needs it's confidence restored.
One way or the other, a definitive move must be made.
All that will happen by waiting is it would get loaded up with pork!
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
Pork
stuffed with more pork. How fitting. And all the little piggies are already anxious at the troth. :) Can't disappoint any of them.
Sic semper tyrannis
I don't know...
..Repblicans
are balking.
Maybe there is hope after all!
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
Being
a vindictive SOB, I like the German take on this situation:
'The World Shouldn't Have to Bear the Burden for America's Lapses'
Sic semper tyrannis
I've heard snortings
that simply changing mark to market rules, would magically bring more of the desired liquidity or capital into the system. They could postpone valuing the bad assets and it would take a lot of pressure off the bottom line.
That sounds a hell of a lot better than raiding the US treasury.
I still think there is foreign pressure from other institutions that is not being mentioned in this debate.
It is the economy, stupid.
accounting vs. regulation
The Economist has an article on this, basically arguing that accounting rules (mark-to-market) should not be modified to serve regulatory purposes
. Accounting is supposed to give investors a clear view of the status of the corporation, and regulatory rules should be structured so that they don't create stupid side-effects when based on good accounting standards.
"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was made a man." --Frederick Douglas
McCain's advisors say they are discouraging Israeli/Syrian peace
While it is refreshing to see such candor, I think these folks & McCain by proxy are idiots:
" Two McCain advisers told participants in a weekend retreat that his administration would discourage Israeli-Syrian peace talks and refrain from actively engaging in the Israeli-Palestinian peace process.
A McCain administration would discourage Israeli-Syrian peace talks and refrain from actively engaging in the Israeli-Palestinian peace process.
That was the message delivered over the weekend by two McCain advisers -- Max Boot, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, and Richard Williamson, the Bush administration's special envoy to Sudan -- during a retreat hosted by the Washington Institute for Near East Policy at the Lansdowne Resort in rural Virginia."
Just wait till half the stuff Max Boot has written hits the media. We'll be seein' Steve Schmidt cry like a baby on national TV about how unfair the MSM is.
Peace is such a 90s concept
qui tacet consentire
Yeah it was a peaceful decade allright
Certain countries do seem to come to mind - Rwanda, Bosnia, Serbia, Iraq, Kuwait - a great time of peace that's for sure.
You don't like peace? WWJD?
I'd love to see peace between the Israelis, the Syrians & the Palestinians.
Suggesting anyone not pursue negotiations for peace is....is somewhat evil.
Now I'm not saying McCain is in league with Satan....maybe they are just f***buddies, that's all.
What would "Stonewall" Jackson do?
No quarter for one's enemies
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Stonewall Jackson is one of my favorites!
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
If you make peace with them they aren't your enemies, right?
Or am I missing something?
I'd like a miracle too...
...but generations of hate between the Israelis and Palestinians is hardly to say JM does not wish it too.
And yes, you miss most everything!
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
Dude...it was John McCains's people that asked the Israelis
not to have peace talks with they Syrians...Are you blind in addition to not caring? See the link. That's your boy who doesn't want peace.
Ya sure, right Kindness-JM doesn't want peace...WHATEVER?
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
Danzig....would take the opposite approach.
When will the first kid wear a shirt to school that reads "Obama is a Jews best friend"
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Tlaloc's 1st rule of News
Any day in which Pakistan appear in a headline is a bad day.
Q.E.D.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Everyone wants in on the Mother of All Bailouts
Link
qui tacet consentire
What took so long?
No ^%$&, Sherlock. The question is why it took you so long to notice.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Barack Obama: more realistic about his plans for future spending
This is a small step on the path toward fiscal sanity. Now, I'd like to see both candidates revisit their tax plans and level with the American people. The numbers just don't add up.
skymutt: wise and powerful... enlightened...
That's good to see...
But neither's plan really added up before the crisis either.
You're right-- they never added up to start with
The "plans" rely on optimistic projections and nebulous promises of eliminating waste and closing loopholes. But the last major party presidential candidate that levelled with the American People on taxes and spending was Walter Mondale, and he lost 49 of 50 states. The lesson was learned: avoid frank and honest discussions on taxes and spending in your campaign.
I really think that Perot showed the way to get around this: unveil out the pie charts, break it down for the American People in pictures. But no major candidate has learned that lesson.
skymutt: wise and powerful... enlightened...
Quote of the Day:
Steve Horwtiz says
:
DOH
friggin, OH!
Give this man a cookie!
Sic semper tyrannis
Horwitz is one of my favorite bloggers
and a top-notch economist.
He's definitely one of the better libertarian writers out there right now.
He might as well be
but I don't find the idea that "no one hates capitalism more than capitalists." original enough to claim it as his own original thought.
Sic semper tyrannis
it may not be original
but it sure is a very misunderstood and unappreciated thought.
I saw that line as a sarcastic one liner on how we're dealing...
..with this situation, and situations like this.
Do you read more into it John?
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
what do you mean?
please clarify.
Just wondered if you saw his statement as something...
...of a wider context than I had suggested?
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
whose statement?
LOL! Nevermind, the moments passed... ;-)
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
In Defense of Capitalism...
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
Yes.
But keep in mind, RW that Horwitz, nor any other libertarian would ever attack capitalism per se. What they attack and what I loathe are the attempts to control capitalism under the euphemism of protecting people and promoting stability.
It's, more than not, simply a crock to protect certain business interests.
The greater degree of free markets, the more brutal the consequences can be for individual risk takers. Market discipline is great for the economy but can be a bitter pill for capitalists....especially larger ones with more to lose.
Indeed...
Precisely the vain in which I submitted the post.
Had we maintained unfettered market conditions, or anything like it, we would not have these symptoms to digest.
I'm very concerned, like you, that we have turned a corner in the US that will be very difficult to undo.
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
In a Purely Capitalist System?
Why wax poetic about a system that will not come to fruition? When someone talks about a purely [ insert economic system here] it's easy to turn off what follows because we will never reach such a system. Supporters of communist and socialist systems discount examples of these systems in practice because people aren't perfectly rational. Similarly, a purely capitalist system won't work either, because it will leave those who do not have the drive to compete out in the cold.
No economic system can be implemented and practiced in its "purest" form. Especially not here.
http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678
Brawl: 2277-7051-2186
You mean like in all of nature?
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
Sorry, let me be clearer...
A purely capitalist system will definitely leave some people out. And to answer your question..yeah. But you'd also agree I hope that a purely capitalist system only exists in the books and never in practice. There is no wealth distribution in a purely capitalist system--sounds great in theory I know, but common sense will tell you that at this point in society, a mixed economy is where we're probably going to be.
http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678
Brawl: 2277-7051-2186
Yes but...
When talking with liberals one quickly finds "Mixed" is subjective, and soon means something all together different than Capitalism with roads, clean water, etc. which would leave overall markets free to operate.
It is the far reaching social engineering sort of wealth distribution that is at the heart of the matter.
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
I agree...
Mixed is indeed subjective, and I think that in many cases, like "pork projects," no federal re-distribution should be done on projects states should be paying for themselves. However, that only applies to about 1% of federal spending. Entitlement spending, education spending, and military spending covers a large portion of federal spending and no one seems to act like a grown up and take the knife to what's really out of control.
Both Democrats emotional arguments (cuts to Social Security and Medicare will kill grandma) and Republicans (cuts to Military spending will lead to mushroom clouds in our cities) are both wildly overstating their cases to keep the biggest drain on our economy intact.
http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678
Brawl: 2277-7051-2186
Uh Oh...Red Wing is now advocating evolution and stuff.
Capitalistic Darwinism......Good in concept, bad when they try to teach it in schools.....
Life's been so nice since we've parted ways....
...please go play your shell games elsewhere...
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
Finally the Kurtz article is released...
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
And we all know...
... that Obama will hire Ayers, Farrakhan, and Wright directly into office as soon as he is sworn in, implementing Marxist-socio-communist policies and black-power meetings at noon on Wednesdays at Camp David. Because whoever you're associated with will definitely impact your policies once you're elected to higher office. Now if you'll excuse me, I have a People for the Raising Of Luxurious Estate Taxes In America Today (P.R.O.L.E.T.A.R.I.A.T.) meeting to get to...Power to the people!
*Raises fist*
*plays the old Soviet National Anthem*
http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678
Brawl: 2277-7051-2186
Nice...
Is that final answer? Cause it's pretty lame!
This is Obama, he is what he is. But when faced with the FACTS of his life, what he's done and how he really thinks, this is the kind of response one gets?
All you live on his promises? Promises that he will not do what he always has, that he is misunderstood time after time after time, that was then this is now, forget my record and listen to my words!
And you do?
Sad?
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
My apologies..
You wanted a serious response to the assertion that Obama is who he hangs out with. I'll try.
At this point, I don't care. Show me a President in recent history that has governed based on his record or what he says he'll do if elected.
Bush was a lot more moderate as Gov of Texas than he has been in office, especially on social issues. McCain has over 26 years in federally elected office and has built a large record on certain policies that he has decided in the past 2-3 months are "not his."
I fear McCain is too impetuous to be President, who will make rash, "unblinking" decisions when someone upsets him. I'll take the inexperienced guy over the guy who "knows everything" and will keep things going the same way we are now.
I have problems with Obama. He is like the "typical politican" but I do not think he is as liberal as you make it (probably based on that faulty National Journal study). I don't believe that his past associations in Chicago will spill over into the way he governs--he's probably doing the same thing that McCain did in his past--using organizations to get the name recognition and power alliances he needs to get into power. Plus, Obama at least seems to use his head and not his "gut" on major decisions we all have to live with.
Since both of them have some shady people in their past, I give them both credit that said people and organizations won't influence them much. McCain's style as of recently has turned me off, and he's not acting like a grown-up.
http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678
Brawl: 2277-7051-2186
Obama's roots are a valid clue to his true views.
Who Obama relied on to get elected in the past provides as good a barometer as any we have available for him on what he really thinks. The people who supported him from the start did not do so against their own interests, so their interests must have been his interests ... at least at the time.
Has he changed those interests? Perhaps, but we have no evidence of that available so the cautious bet is to assume that he hasn't since that fundamental of a change is rare.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
When Barack Obama met Bill Ayers, Ayers was a respected
college professor and board member of a local charity that Barack also was asked to sit on.
RESPECTED college professor. CHARITY BOARD MEMBER. What is it about that that Obama should be ashamed of? How might someone like that reflect poorly on a person?
We aren't talking about Bill Ayers, 60's weatherman. We're talking Bill Ayers, 80's,90's respected & productive citizen.
Now I see that some of you want to take it to a place that is absurd so I'll leave this with:
Jesus of Nazareth hung out with prostitutes, the poor & ex tax collectors. Jesus of Nazareth liked to knock stuff around in Temple. Jesus turned water into wine and gave it to the poor whom he was talking to.
Respected? By who? The liberal acedemic establishment...
...made up of 60's radicals?
Gee?
Because the average American does not respect bill ayers any more than charles manson or the unibomber!
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
You don't speak for the "average American".
Neither does your buddy Rush, not unless you mean the Canadian Rock band Rush.
Whatever...You're an idiot! (Speaking for myself of course!)
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
Re-read the posting rules
Especially:
* Be reasonably civil.
* Do not consistently abuse or vilify other posters.
"You're an idiot" is bad.
Attack ideas, not posters.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Thanks.
Your ideas are idiotic!
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
Much better
Carry on. And you two be on good behavior.
I start a temp job tomorrow, so I won't be around as much.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Oh nice, congrats on your J - O - B!
"A society that puts equality before freedom will have neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." ~ Milton Friedman
Bah
Its a temp job for a factory in my hometown (which is now a 40min drive from Sandusky). It'll have to do for now.
*Brutus, they put me at MTD on line 3.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
You wanna moderate - Do it consistently.
Kindness has crossed that line on SO many occasions.
The continual forthcoming of intellectual flatuence from Kindness in the midst of civil discourse is nauseating.
Granted I got caught up in it, but I have made a sincere, deliberate effort to avoid such silliness of late.
Yet here we are, having a nice day, talking about whatever, and in comes a windbag of foul smelling declamatory leaving a trail of putrid remnant wherever it goes.
I ask Kindness to go their separate way, but Kindness declines.
If it continues