Dancin' With The Devil
There's a great line in a fairly good movie called "8 MM", where Max California tells Tom Welles this:
If you dance with the devil, the devil don't change. The devil changes you.
Let's consider a scenario in which America capitulates to Radical Islam and the greater Middle East; consider it because it looms dead ahead.
As the news progresses by the hour, it is important for us to reflect for a moment on the things that have brought us here. First of course was the invasion of Iraq. Never mind Afghanistan. Never mind the 20 some odd years of bee stings levied against us by the growing and intentionally ignored rise of Radical Islam; the whole of history and the greater context won't be fully appreciated in the time I have left on this earth that God has granted me.
In terms of Iraq, we raced along the body of the snake and very quickly removed its head. We see in hind sight that we took the writhing body left behind dramatically too lightly, and find ourselves STILL trying to force theAC serpent to lie still. Agree or not, there ARE outside influences, ones outside Iraq's borders that keep that snake writhing and squirming. And those outside influences live very close by.
Don't take MY word for it, look to the seditious news dinosaur, the New York Times, who tells us Hezbollah Said to Help Shiite Army in Iraq, and further reports from that dreaded "condition of anonymity" source I keep hoping to meet:
Iran has facilitated the link between Hezbollah and the Shiite militias in Iraq, the official said. Syrian officials have also cooperated, though there is debate about whether it has the blessing of the senior leaders in Syria.
And we are about to go to the Prom with these guys because of the "Losing Wars For Dummies" Commission.
In the aftermath of the "first" mission accomplished, we have experienced much of what we should have expected were we to learn from history and evaluate its wisdom as we determined our way forward. Alas, we have yet to learn from history.
We should have remembered how we felt when we were under the King's rule. We should have remembered how we felt about his soldiers living among us, and we should have remembered that these feelings caused us to rise up against it in every manner and form we could muster.
So too should we have revisited the stories of the Crusades. We should have gone back to those times of conquest and the struggles for self-promotion and decimation wrought on the peoples of all the lands over which Christians and Muslims fought.
We should have researched the fighting methods of the day, and reflected on the extent to which those methods led the Muslims to the stature of ultimate victor, and we should have taken into account the extent to which many of those same fighting methods continue to be successfully used today. We should also have considered the aftermath of the Europe grown weary of war, having shifting their focus to their own regions and their own cultures and the fall into what would become the "Renaissance" and a capitulation to Islam that they should just go forward enjoying their spoils in the desert and leave us to more intellectual pursuits.
We should recall these things now for this is the co-existence peace plan the newly elected majority is planning for us.
With further investigation into the subsequent generations, the Ottoman Empire being the last of its might before the World Wars would ensue, we might have been able to prevent finding ourselves squarely back where we were over a thousand years ago. We might not have had to again face a clash of cultures; ours self-serving and refined and civilized and theirs a survivalist theocracy, with a heaping dose of tyranny and barbarism with no compunction for any unbelieving human life, thrown in for good measure.
With the former Caliphate's bees nest thoroughly whacked, and with the promotion to power broker status for Iran by our own hands, we face the call for capitulation. All that is left, really, is whether and how we answer that call.
Lest anyone forget, Ahmadinejad has made it quite clear regarding his wishes for the fate of Israel. He has been consistent in his assertions that they have no right to the lands of Palestine, and even reminds us of this in his Love Letter to the American people VIA THE UN, OF ALL UNBIASED MIDDLE-OF-THE-ROAD, NO SIDE-TAKING PLACES.
He suggests our government is an island, wreaking havoc on all of us and trampling our Constitution, and that we have thus far been unable to do anything but sit idly by while the "devil" George Bush has his way with us. What you won't hear the so-called Main Stream Media tell you in the coming days is that his letter also includes the normal steps associated with establishing a dhimmitude or "legal status of a free non-Muslim subject of a state governed in accordance with sharia — Islamic law." They also won't remind you that he believes in, and considers himself engaged with attempting to bring forth the 12th Imam
or "the ultimate saviour of mankind." And, you should not be surprised to learn this saviour is a Muslim.
Part and parcel to such a master plan, of course, includes regaining the Caliphate last lost by the Ottomans to the Turks not so very long ago. A look at the map of the Caliphate in 750 AD
should look eerily familiar to anyone keeping track of the places in the world where Radical Islam has taken hold.
So, keep score here. Iraq collapses and the US and UK and the remaining Coalition withdraws. Iraq returns to Sharia law. Check. Israel goes away. Nukes will take care of that...what's a few hundred thousand Muslim martyr's lives in the general scheme of things if it facilitates the death of the Zionist pigs? We got millions more of them anyway. Palestine returns to Sharia law. Check. Big piece of the Caliphate re-assembles. Check. Somalia finalizes being taken over by the ICU. Sharia law is invoked. Check. Sudan, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Djibouti and maybe Kenya next. Sharia law. Check.
If you STILL don't believe Iran has big ambitions, and considers themselves in an excellent strategic position in this regard, thanks to our efforts in Iraq, I offer you Arnaud de Borchgrave from the Washington Times, and his imperial wisdom and insight to make the case for the extent to which Iran is of our own making. He reports that Iranians themselves are eternally grateful for the West and this Administration HANDING them supremacy in the region without them having to fire a single shot:
Iran can either facilitate or humiliate a U.S. withdrawal from Iraq. Key mullahs now say Iran should assist a U.S. exit that would enhance Iran's regional power. The argument, put forward by Moshen Rezai, secretary of the government's "Expediency Council," states that "America's arrival in the region presented Iran with an historic opportunity."
"The kind of service that the Americans, with all their hatred, have done us," said Mr. Rezai, "no superpower has ever done anything similar. America destroyed all our enemies in the region. It destroyed the Taliban. It destroyed Saddam Hussein. ... It did all this in order to confront us face to face, and in order to place us under siege. But the American teeth got so stuck in the soil of Iraq and Afghanistan that if they manage to drag themselves back to Washington in one piece, they should thank Allah."
America, therefore, "presents us with an opportunity rather than a threat -- not because it intended to, but because its estimates were wrong and made many mistakes," argued Mr. Rezai. Washington, he said, "has now despaired of toppling the Islamic Republic. The threats we face... are about blocking Iran's influence in the region. This is a vital national interest and the entire nuclear dispute revolves around it."
Mr. Rezai said, "now that the Democrats have both houses of Congress," it was incumbent upon Iran to "behave reasonably." America's policies and goals in the Middle East won't change, he concluded, but methods will and "put aside Bush's warmongering methods," and both countries "will stay clear of aggressive confrontations."
A must read comes to us from Andrew McCarthy over at National Review Online
, and it should be enough to get you moving away from the post-election slumber and news-listlessness you find yourselves in a month out from the re-taking of the Majority by the Democrats. McCarthy is on to something I fear many of us will realize only too late:
In the wake of 9/11, the American people did not care about democratizing the Muslim world. Or, for that matter, about the Muslim world in general. They still don’t. They want Islamic terrorists and their state sponsors crushed. As for the aftermath, they want something stable that no longer threatens our interests; they care not a wit whether Baghdad’s new government looks like Teaneck’s.
To the contrary, Bush-administration officials — notwithstanding goo-gobs of evidence that terrorists have used the freedoms of Western democracies, including our own, the better to plot mass murder — have conned themselves into believing that democracy, not decisive force, is the key to conquering this enemy.
So deeply have they gulped the Kool-Aid that, to this day, they refuse to acknowledge what is plain to see: While only a small number of the world’s billion-plus Muslims (though a far larger number than we’d like to believe) is willing to commit acts of terrorism, a substantial percentage — meaning tens of millions — supports the terrorists’ anti-West, anti-democratic agenda.
Islamic countries, moreover, are not rejecting Western democracy because they haven’t experienced it. They reject it on principle. For them, the president’s euphonious rhetoric about democratic empowerment is offensive. They believe, sincerely, that authority to rule comes not from the people but from Allah; that there is no separation of religion and politics; that free people do not have authority to legislate contrary to Islamic law; that Muslims are superior to non-Muslims, and men to women; and that violent jihad is a duty whenever Muslims deem themselves under attack … no matter how speciously.
These people are not morons. They adhere to a highly developed belief system that is centuries old, wildly successful, and for which many are willing to die. They haven’t refused to democratize because the Federalist Papers are not yet out in Arabic. They decline because their leaders have freely chosen to decline. They see us as the mortal enemy of the life they believe Allah commands. Their demurral is wrong, but it is principled, not ignorant. And we insult them by suggesting otherwise.
Pay close attention to this...very close attention.
Jihadists are confident, intimidating, and rigorously disciplined. They are thus certain to thrive in the chaos of nascent “democracies.” Consequently, it should be unsurprising to anyone with a shred of common sense that terrorist organizations are ascendant in the new governments of Iraq, Lebanon, and the Palestinian territories.
If anyone reading this DOESN'T think Ahmadinejad in Iran and Bassad in Syria, who by the way is the regional Secretary of the Baath Party, are jihadists fully matching the description as layed out by McCarthy in his piece, then you are already lost. As he closes his piece he is nearly begging us to pay attention, and think through where we are headed in this war; not just Iraq, but around the globe against the whole of Radical Islam:
Let’s talk with our enemies, Iran and Syria. Let’s talk with terror abettors as if they were good guys — just like us. As if they were just concerned neighbors trying to stop the bloodshed in Iraq … instead of the dons who’ve been commanding it all along.
Someone, please explain something to me: How does it follow that, because Islamic cultures reject democracy, we somehow need to talk to Iran and Syria?
What earthly logic that supports talking with these Islamic terrorists would not also support negotiating with al Qaeda — a demarche not even a Kennedy School grad would dare propose?
There’s none.
When I grew up in The Bronx, there were street gangs. You mostly stayed away from them, and, if you really had to, you fought with them. But I never remember anyone saying, “Gee, maybe if we just talk with them ...”
Nor do I remember, in two decades as a prosecutor, anyone saying, “Y’know, maybe if we just talk with these Mafia guys, we could achieve some kind of understanding ...”
Sitting down with evil legitimizes evil. As a practical matter, all it accomplishes is to convey weakness. This spring — after trumpeting the Bush Doctrine’s “you’re with us or you’re with the terrorists” slogan for five years — Secretary of State Rice pathetically sought to bribe Iran out of its nuclear program with a menu of all carrots and no sticks … and certainly no demand that the mullahs stop fomenting terror. The result? They’re still laughing at us, even as they build their bombs, harbor al Qaeda operatives, and arm the militias killing American soldiers in Iraq.
While our rhetoric blathers that we’ll never let them have a nuke, our talk begs them, pretty-please, to stop building one. And our actions all but hand them one. If all that makes you wonder who’s the superpower, what do you suppose they’re thinking?
That’s talking with an enemy that has us pretty well pegged, while we stubbornly resist even thinking about what motivates him. We wouldn’t want to question his ideology. After all, what would CAIR say?
The democracy project tells Islamists that we don’t understand them — or care to try understanding them. The “let’s talk” gambit confirms that we’re not just studiously ignorant; we’re ripe for the taking.
For our own sake, we need to respect the enemy. That means grasping that he’s implacable, that he means us only harm, and that he must be subdued, not appeased. Negotiating with such evil is always a mistake, for any accommodation with evil is, by definition, evil.
Rejecting the democracy project is about respecting the enemy. Declining to talk to the enemy is about respecting ourselves.
The greatest fears I have lie in the laps of those we collectively chose to lead us through these next two years. The Speaker of the House calls the Iraq war a problem that needs a solution. She doesn't see this as a war that needs to find a victor. Her colleagues see our withdrawal BEFORE Iraq can secure itself as the best means to forcing them to pick up the pace in trying to do so. And...wait for it...
Wait for it...
They think we need to build bridges and come together with our friends in the region and have THEM work out the peace amongst themselves so we can....yep-leave them to their spoils in the desert and we can come home and concentrate on more intellectual pursuits. History, DOES have a way of repeating itself. Funny, Liberals and Socialists were running the show back then, too.
I close as I opened:
If you dance with the devil, the devil don't change. The devil changes you.
- haystack's diary
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Comments :
Welcome
Nice to see you here!
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
thanks-it's YOUR fault that I came back
but I will try again here at SC...
welcome man!
it can be rough in here, but there are some fairly bright liberals.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Geez, is it hot in here...
Like someone left the door open when the desert winds were howling.
More fear-mongering in overripe, righteous language from a neocon.
Get busy, neocon. There are Crusades to be fought!
Your boys were wrong. In the worst way. And it must hurt. Dreadfully so. The neocons are quickly being banished from the kingdom (to adopt your rich prose style). They thought they had a cakewalk in Iraq:
"Greeted with rose petals..."
"Mission Accomplished!"
"Last throes..."
"Iraqi oil to pay for the war and reconstruction..."
And now this. Just like in Steve's diary on the AP, the neocons are busy lining up parties to blame for their monumental fiasco -- a fiasco that the foreign policy establishments of BOTH parties long warned about. All based on a neocon dream (and, yes, it was dream with no grounding in reality) of quickly toppling Iraq, Iran and Syria.
The people who knew better long viewed people like you and your fellow neocons as fringe lunatics. They laughed at Bill Kristol and Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and Michael Ledeen and John Bolton and the others because these neocons had no idea what they were talking about.
And then Bush and Cheney rolled into office and the neocons rolled in with them.
And now we're paying the price for their folly. A monumental price.
And we are expected to accept yet another doomsday scenario -- mushroom clouds, world domination, attacks -- just like we were sold the first bill of goods by Cheney, Rice, et. al.?
I say, "God luck to you in your Crusade, sir! And godspeed to you and your neocon bretheren in your quest! Now off with you on your steeds! Go forth and tame the infidels!"
Yes, an army of clacking keyboardists, off to save the world!
If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?
thank you for your thoughts, cheneyslovechild
and though I appreciate the sarcasms, I don't share your outlook. And by the way, I am a paleocon NOT a necocon...
I really don't care about Bush and Cheney. Don't care about who was FOR what, or which rich PR campaigns were levied against us by which speech writers. Whatever extent Iraq was folly or a fools errand, we created an Iran that must be dealt with-and not in the "everything will be fine if we give them what they want" context.
Laughing off the idea that there are greater meanings and implications behind what radical Islam has done, is doing and seeks to do moving forward is significantly more dangerous than whatever was done rightly or wrongly vis a vis Iraq.
Some in "your" media wing of the party believe we need to lose in Iraq to teach us a lesson. They further suggest a loss is the bloody nose we need in order to re-learn the notion that nation building is wrong and we have no business doing it.
Is it safe to assume you share the opinion that Iraq is nothing more than a symbolic conflict...a regional issue that has no deeper meaning in the world at large? Do you consider this all a series of law enforcement issues that should be handled in the places where these acts occur by local authorities?
More paranoia
You're in tin-foli-hat territory there. Please diplay for all those who are advocating a loss in Iraq to "teach us a lesson."
Me thinks you're not getting enough oxygen.
As for Iraq, I would prefer that we go after al Qaeda, worldwide, instead of creating a problem where none existed.
And certainly, you must admit that the lies told about Iraq to start this war are relevant. Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11, funding terrorists or supplying Iraqis for terrorist acts.
I would like to know what is to be gained by our continued presence in Iraq, given that we are not even patrolling Baghdad at this point, but, instead, have our troops bunkered down in their camps, taking incoming mortar fire.
Given that reality, and the the reality that we have another couple of years of rudderless leadership before us, what are your big plans?
If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?
Welcome to the site
I hope you stick around to discuss the issues. :)
Interesting diary. Your narrative style is somewhere between eloquent and ridiculously flowery. A great approach when speaking to the loyal, but for those of us skeptics, it requires us to dredge through the muck to discover your point: let's relive the crusades. If we leave Iraq, we leave the ME in the hands of radical Muslims (and we will have an intellectual revolution?--more on this point later), but if we stay (and what, kill them all?) we will finally get the trophy that's evaded us for the last thousand years.
Just a few questions. When Europeans returned from the crusades as losers (used loosely as in did not succeed in our imperialist goal), they concentrated on intellectual pursuits as you stated, leading shortly thereafter to the Renaissance. You treat that as some kind of negative. Why? Wasn't that a positive development? If we would've won, today we would probably live in a religiously dominated society controlled by the church still. Wasn't 'losing' the best thing that could've happened to us in a historical sense?
So, what is the solution to Iraq? What are our goals? How do you define victory?
Lastly, I don't understand this line:
Who were the socialists running the show in the dark ages? Who are the socialists and liberals controlling our government now?
Anyway, thanks for posting.
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/
How to win?
For 3 years US troops have been in Iraq--yet everyday, things grow worse. So how do you propose to win the war?
Have a draft to send more troops? There was one in Vietnam but we still were not winning prior to pullout. War is already costing $500 billion dollars--spend 1 or 2 trillion more?
Actually if we pull out and give the country to Iraqis and if they squander this and elect bad leaders--we can do better in controlling them--through air strikes and embargo than having troops in the ground. We shd not allow the new govt to have air force or rocket launchers
Who are we really helping?--a govt filled with Sadr terrorists. Who are we training? --police loyal to Sadr terrorists. So why are we training people who will later turn their backs against us.
How about working with Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Syria, the sectarian factions and tell them we are planning to leave and how to make the transition easier for everyone.
The war was lost before it began
George Bush 41 knew this so did not topple Saddam even if he was literally in his doorstep and even permitted Saddam to brutally crushed the Shiite insurgency then.
Everyting happening now was predicted and known and the conventional wisdom until neocons change it. Everything happening now was the reason Democrats and liberals were against the war.
thank you specter
I was here in the first days of SC's inception by trevino invite. I left after a couple weeks because I grew weary of the shrill but came back because of StevenFoley's suggestion that there was more reasoned debate now. We shall see.
I wouldn't have even bothered crossing this piece here except for how strongly I feel about this topic and how important I think it is that we look very closely at the larger meanings of this particular issue-I believe (perhaps I am wrong but I don't think so) that there are some things that have generational impacts and the taking over by radical Islam is the biggest problem our generation faces.
I accept the critique of my writing style. I have been known to run off at the mouth on occasion-I will try to be more concise going forward.
Lastly (for this round) I am not on a big chest thumping campaign about imperialism and forcing Democracy down the throats of those who's culture just can not grasp its tenets. I am also, however, not going to sit quietly and watch the expansion of radical Islam across the globe...it finds its way to our shores and my grandchildren at some point, and I just can't accept that.
Far too many of us are putting far too little importance on what is going on in the ME and what it means to our future. I am sorry if I took too long to make that point originally, but doomsday is an understatement now and capitulation has been tried in the past to no avail.
However much fun it may be to bash the President and make fun of him and his policies; however much entertainment people get out of tearing at each other for partisan banter, we are in a lot more trouble than a lot of people want to bother to take the time to consider any more seriously than a quip or two at each others' expense.
We do so at a time we can least afford to.
So what are you recommendations?
I read a lot of hand-wringing, but not much substance.
Great. You think radical Islam will lead to horrific consequences for us and the world.
So what are planning on doing about it? Are you in the military? If not, do you have plans to join? Are you going to run for office? Are you going to write on blogs? Help in campaigns?
Since you are "not going to sit quietly," what are you planning on doing exactly?
If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?
Actually the question is...
...what are you going to do? "What do the Democrats propose"? Your side won back Congress, remember? Very soon this will be your little bugger eater to raise. So show us your, presumably superior plan.
like Moe Lane said
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
A slight exaggeration...
...after all the dems did not win the presidency who is the commander in chief. Congress can and should provide some oversite but they can't really force Bush to do anything as far as Iraq is concerned. I'm afraid this anchor is going to be around your necks another two years.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
I see your point
but I will raise you an objection (sorry, playing too much poker).
The president still makes military decisions since he is the CinC. We can propose things, but as far as actual plans and battlefield tactics, the democrats don't have much power.
Moe's quotation is a bit closer to the mark:
Yes, we do have power of the purse and some oversight (but not over military operations). The budget still has to be signed by the president as far as I know, and the dems would never commit political suicide by saying they are not going to properly fund troops in harms way. Nor would they shut down the government a la Gingrich as a showdown over the issue.
I'm not trying to say that the dems have no responsibility in solving the problem before us, but let's not exaggerate by handing us a plate of the dog's breakfast and say, "Eat up; it's your problem now."
This conversation is becoming a tangent anyhow. It's gone from, 'we must fight in the ME' to 'Iraq is the dem's problem now'.
P.S. Good to see you back too, Steve. Your posts and comments are rare here since working on Minority Report. You have good stuff over there. I mean I disagree with most of it, but the writing is passionate and well-done. I may comment over there once in a while in a neutral way, but for now I will just lurk to let you guys get some foundation without any trolls (even less than abrasive ones).
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/
well
The post was meant as a PointyStick&trade CLC seems a bit more testy than usual ;0)
Thanks, I've been busy trying to get the new blog off the ground I hope you'll come respectfully add to the discussion now and again although it's a partisan site an honest respectful dissent is good even from a wrong headed lib like yourself...j/k :0)
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
No, Steve, your buddy here said he will not sit idly by.
So I assume he has a plan. Like tap-tap-tapping on his keyboard.
If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?
What I love about CheneysLove Child
See, when I was here before I think you were as well, and I am thrilled you have not changed; that or you are the original's clone.
Let's see. At 50, I can scarcely join the military, but you really don't believe any individual soldier makes a difference, so your strawman carries little logic.
Then, there are my children, and my relatives who fight there today...but they are not relevant to your ideology...again-the individual sacrifices are of little import to you.
Then, my work at the local, state, and federal level and my constant attempts to let my legislators know how I feel means little as well because it is, after all, just my clacking away at a meaningless keyboard.
Then, there is my exercise of my voice and my opinion at the ballot box to express my position through the mechanism given me by the constitution that my family fights now and in the past has died for...but this is pointless as well presumably.
Of course, my tap tapping at the keyboards as I write here and at many other places, and to the media outlets, and my local papers...this matters little as well.
Lest we forget my volunteer work for soldiers sailors airmen and marines at Fort Hood and other places, my interviews with vets and our wounded and my work at local VFW sites and my time giving blood and money and supplies to support the soldiers before they deploy and when they return...nah, this is all meaningless and symbolic at best.
I can not be an elected public servant, and I can't be in the military anymore, and my family and extended family that DO wear the uniform for you apparently don't count, so I guess you are right.
Typing is pissing in the wind, and the only ones who make a difference are folks like you with an anti-anything Bush attitude, and an anti-anything Iraq war approach, and whatever the hell else points of pontification you wish to sit on...I regret troubling you with my meager attempts to engage in dialog with such as yourself on that high platitude of greater evolutionary stature you apparently consider yourself to be on...I will quietly lurk, and learn from your profound and esteemed wisdom and intellect...oh great one.
And by the way, please share with us oh great one, just exactly what it is that YOU do. Are you heading up the shut Bush down, bundle up the troops, and bring them home initiative? What is it you do to exact this loss at war and the resulting shame we deserve for having done something we never had any business doing in the first place?
I only ask because you are progressing nicely and I hope to learn from your mastery.
Poetic and passionate response.
Kudos!
I'm only half stupid
Great if you like poetry
Or, in this case, hot air expelled whil wrapping himself in the falg and apple pie.
Frankly, I'm a little sick and tired of rightwing hacks pretending that only their side fights and dies in wars. It's complete and utter bullsh** as I point out, below.
If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?
thank you for being here
you make those of us who care proud.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Oh quit with the "We're-patriotic- and-they're-not" crap.
You phonies.
That's what's wrong with you guys. You';re nauseating in your self-important claims.
I have had plenty of family and friends involved in the mess in Iraq. I had a good friend get killed there and he left behind two daughters and many grieving family members and friends.
So spare me the rousing, "I stand and salute you, sir!" nonsense.
This is a stupid war started and run by stupid people. The sooner we're out, the better.
If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?
well I know
it almost looked like I was implying what you said I implied, but I did not mean it like that.
I appreciate the mindset of people like haystack. I salute him because he wants to proceed in a similar fashion to what I believe is right. So it is a fellow traveller salute - not a "you are a great patriot and these libs here are not" salute.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
fellow traveller
that's Товарищ in Russian - right? :)
Sic semper tyrannis
well
that translates to "comrade" so I suppose it could be a synonym :)
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Товарищ
I was thinking more in terms of how fellow traveler was used as a code word to describe communist sympathizers. I always thought that the word Товарищ meant someone with whom you go together, so fellow traveler seemed like a perfect way to connote that meaning.
Alas, the etymology of the word stands in complete contradiction to it's implied meaning:
tovarich
Sic semper tyrannis
My mistake.
Thanks.
If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?
You're not leaving that quickly are you?
I hope you were not serious. Don't let the first heated confrontation since you've been back chase you away. The arguments are fun at times, and seriously, I'll be the first to admit that I am not out changing the political scene daily either (though you admittedly do much more than I do, well, at least directly).
Stick it out a bit.
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/
oh no, I don't give up that easy
I just wanted to get across the point that in this thread, our beloved CLC apparently finds typing(which he/she does on an equal footing) to be mindless and inconsequential...the irony of which calls for no emphasis on my part.
I will, however, enjoy my new pursuits of lurking the posts of pontification and spiritual wisdom and guidance that I anticipate coming forth in the days ahead from said CLC...and I will learn!
heh
Ah, grasshopper, there is much for you to learn.
Come sit at my knee and I will teach you the paths to enlightenment.
If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?
I picked this one to reply to all your comments, clc
because the grasshopper comment is the most friendly place to reply and make an offer of mutual disagreement in a constructive manner.
I appreciate the experiences you have had with family and friends and acquaintances fighting this war and I mourn the loss of any you know that have died in it.
I did not ask for you to defend yourself as you did when you listed off all the things you listed in order to justify yourself or your position. Your snarky comments to me put me in a position of having to defend myself which is what I tried to do...and it was snarky itself. I don't apologize, but it offers an opportunity to get back to dialog and debate, not pot shots about who is or is not doing enough to actively participate in whichever side of this debate we sit on.
Where we disagree is in whether the war was right in the first place. We agree deeply, however, that it has been poorly waged for much of the last 2 years starting with the first Fallujah. Much of the left versus right vitriol over this war was given birth (IMHO) after that fiasco. It has only grown worse since-to the point that we the people here in places like this seem to be a stark reflection of what our political heroes are doing to themselves as they fumble and fail to properly lead us through to some sensible conclusion to this mess.
We have exchanged the "what are you doing personally" debate...we are both apparently trying to do what we think is right to the extent we can singly make a difference in what the geniuses in Washington are doing or not doing.
I will again, more concisely try to answer your original question...we need to end the war with a decisive defeat to the enemy. This has not happened yet. Al Sadr should already be dead, al Sistani should be in prison. All the militias should be disarmed and should have been before al Sadr ever got his going in the first place.
A victory in this war will not come through capitulation to any sub-group vying for some remnants of power or control in the wake of Saddam's fall. Look at how things run in our society-no one is allowed to take up arms and stand against the central government or use their weapons to manipulate government behavior. This is the climate in Iraq, and it must be defeated, handily, and with no confusion. Stuff should have already been blown up and a lot more people should already be dead...but you see, this is not how the politically correct warriors see things.
Because of this, the internal fight right here at home is merely a reflection of the impotence of the American war machine-not because our soldiers can't finish this thing but rather because of political hand-wringing and ambivalence right here at home about how to fight a nice war and by using our soldiers as policemen and marriage counselors instead of as warriors.
I didn't come back here to pick a fight with you, though I am game just as much as you are...I came here to get said my original point: what is at stake in Iraq is much greater than Iraq itself. Iran, Syria, and the al Qaedas and Hezbollahs and Hamas's of the region are hell bent on establishing a caliphate, and the establishment of a Radical Islam power bloc in the middle east.
We will not like what that feels like, and we will be in much greater danger over time than if we find a way to get the region back to peaceful co-existences with each other and with each allowing for the sovereignty of the others and with each accepting the right to exist of the others...independent of the waste of energy we keep expending about whether it was wrong to be there in the first place-we are already there-and we need to quit pussy-footing around...our guys are dying and we need to get them home. BUT.
Iraq is a mess, and our Commander in Chief shoulders all the blame because it is his job to. Arbitrarily pulling out and the resultant "equivalent loss" in the eyes of the groups I just mentioned just to make SURE Bush takes the hit and is made to look bad...or that a bloody nose is what we deserve for doing what many think was wrong in the first place is, simply, short-sighted and self-serving, and is not in our long-term best interests.
Your serve.
Okay, so what, exactly, are you proposing?
Perhaps an additional 200,000 troops or more?
Because isn't that what it's going to take to:
As I have pointed out to Ender a couple of times (once after he claimed we would could put 500,000 additional troops anywhere in the world on short notice), the U.S. Army own current assessment is that they have only an additional 7,000 to 10,000 combat-ready troops available
for further deployments. And that's with extending the tours of Guard and Reserve forces that are already overtaxed.
Nevermind the fact that we don't have the equipment
due to the high attrition rate of gear in Iraq.
As far as going on a killing spree in Iraq, I'll ask you the same thing I have asked Ender when he has advocated the same thing you're advocating: Whom do we kill? Like Vietnam, the enemy is not clearly delineated in this conflict.
Read this piece:
THE STRUGGLE FOR IRAQ; Perfect Killing Method, but Clear Targets Are Few
Do we just wipe out entire areas? How do we pick and choose targets?
You, like Ender, like to claim that the reason the war cannot be won is because our forces are fighting with their hands tied behind their backs.
So tell me... How do we kill all members of the Mahdi Army? It's not like they're walking around with signs on their backs. Hell, read my diary
about the Iraqi military and police. We are training forces loyal to clerics, not to a central government.
Here's the ugly truth, haystack. We are training and arming the very people who are killing our soldiers.
I had to laugh at Bush's comments at the Maliki meeting press conference that we will "ramp up" the training of Iraq forces. Those forces are the guys doing the kidnappings, beheadings and killing of Americans. American forces on the ground do not trust -- and never turn their backs on -- the very Iraqi forces with which they are training and patrolling.
So how does a situation like this ever end for us?
Establishment of a caliphate in the Middle East will be over the dead bodies of many Arabs. If there but one sect of Islam that dominated the region, I would agree with your doomsday scenario. But there is not. The Sunnis and the Shia despise one another, and any attempt to gain influence will be met with stiff resistance.
Remember when we funded Saddam's long war with Iran? Do you think the Saudis, Kuwaitis and other dominant oil producers (Sunni) will sit idly by while Iran and Shia in Iraq attempt to set up a caliphate?
Get off it.
And we haven't even discussed Israel.
I disagree fundamentally with your premise. You treat all of Islam and all the Arab states as one. They are not and never have been.
There are plenty of Sunni states who will not accept a Shia run caliphate in the Middle East. You can be certain of that.
In the meantime, you're suggesting that we sit in the middle -- an untenable, no-win situation -- no matter how many troops we drop into Iraq.
Who is the enemy in Iraq? How do we kill them?
If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?
Great point
You have an excellent understanding of the region and the complications that preclude a victory. There is not a defined enemy as, we've both said this before, the ones we are trying to help are often the same ones shooting at us.
This situation leads to four possibilities:
1. Kill 'em all. Only belligerent simpletons believe that is a solution as America is not in the business of genocide, and the public won't stand for mass killings of innocents. It is an almost an impossible accomplishment also, since Muslims extend around the world from Africa to Indonesia, not just the ME. They will see this as an affront to their brethren, and it will make things more complicated and bloody increasing our true enemies a thousand-fold.
2. Redeploy to somewhere in the area and let the Iraqis figure it out. We can observe from the sidelines and use tactical strikes when a clear enemy emerges. We can also give financial and military aid to those who ask for it and deserve it. It may get bloody, but the Iraq civil war is not our war to fight. Maybe not fair since we created the instability, but fairness goes out the window when we can no longer serve a suitable function in the area other than target-practice from all sides.
3. Partition the area according to religious lines and hope the segregation quells the violence. It may get bloody for a bit also, but the artificial boundaries drawn by France and England after WWI are part of the sectarian violence problem. Redeployment and support could be a role we play here also.
4. Stay the course and hope things work out. The latter is not going to happen as the empirical evidence suggests thus far, and in the meantime our soldiers get to be the potshot target of snipers.
I vote for #2 or #3. The other solutions are madness and impractical.
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/
reply to both clc & specter
this is better...no yelling and pointy sticks. I think there is a modicum of agreements weaved throughout these comments from you guys. Let's consider your points first clc.
Hundreds of thousands of additional troops "could" be found...redeploying from the DMZ, Germany, Japan, Nato...you get the idea...but even if we COULD find them, I think we agree we are past major offensives on a scale as big as the one that put us in there in the first place. There is no shock left, and we facing yawn now instead of awe...specter is right on this point as well...the troop issue is more along the lines of needing to be for a specific purpose...more bodies just for the sake of more bodies only magnifies the bumbling from the administrators of this thing now anyway.
I don't know if either of you read mil blogs at all, but there is a quite famous one called blackfive. Regardless of your personal opinions of milblogs or soldiers or whatever, one scenario that I think has merit (an we all know the old adage about opinions) but here's an informed proposition from someone that's been in it:[h/t UncleJimbo
]:
He goes on to address the reality that this would all be a waste of time if we don't deal with the Syria and Iran issue. My point in pasting such a big chunk of his piece here is this:
There are plenty of alternatives of more focused use of the resources we already have. Much more could be done than has been in the areas we are having the greatest problems. You guys are both right that the Iraq security guys themselves have conflicting loyalties. They either are democracy bound or theocracy bound. The mullahs and the clerics are the keys or they should be the law enforcement targets.
We flatten the symbolic areas of problems then we come home...otherwise we leave them to kill themselves and this is nearly the same genocide as you suggest...except our specific hands will have been washed of the blood ostensibly through the militias. This is not right to do this now to the Iraqi people...nor to the memory of the blood and treasure invested to this point.
We could be doing more...and more that would potentially work, than we have been...and again, the politics of this at home are squarely in the crosshairs of blame...
Thanks for your thoughtful reply.
I do take issue with a few of your and Jimbo’s assessments. I will go through these one at a time, but try to limit my commentary to the most vital differences of opinion.
False either/or as demonstrated by the idea of redeployment. I question the idea of victory at this stage also. Stable Iraq with a pro-US government? Democracy? Less terrorists? What defines victory? I think we ‘lost’ as far as stability and democracy no matter what. Any puppet government we install will topple the moment we step out of the country, and, frankly, I do not think the US can afford a presence as a police force there permanently.
Again, this sounds swell on the theoretical level, but the problem is we don’t know who the enemy is anymore. Basically, we patrol and when someone shoots at us, we return fire and attempt to chase them down. Sometimes we are successful and sometimes not. There are standing militias that could make for identifiable targets. But there are two problems with this point also.
The first is that many if not most of the militias are integrated into the local police forces and into the military. The “Iraqi people’s enemies” are mostly Iraqis themselves, and more specifically the Iraqi security forces
. If we leave these places after holding them and clearing them out of insurgents, we leave it with the same people we were attacking in the first place, the police and Iraqi army AKA, the militias. There is not a national army because no one has confidence in it. Instead, the militias are loyal to local leadership and religious leaders in a feudalism framework.
The second point is that Jimbo is right that we are successful in eradicating al-Qaeda, but they are a huge minority in the violence and the insurgency. Since most of the insurgents consist of sectarian fighters now instead of al-Qaeda (I had some great links showing the statistics of this fact before the move, so trust me on this unless you wish for me to dig them up again), we will lose more support from the populace by taking a kill ‘em all, clear ‘em out mentality. This is a sure-fire way to just increase our already unpopular presence
.
I am not a military analyst, so I respect what he says, but I think Jimbo is blinded by military hubris and not thinking through the results of the action.
Again, I question the use of ‘bad guys’ as too simplistic of a statement in the current circumstance. Also, haven’t we done this already in Fullujah? Today, it is just as violent
as before we went in. Instead of playing “Whack-the –Mole”
, we need to come up with new, original thinking and strategies instead of just saying, “let’s do the same failing practices over and over,” which is what, with all due respect, Jimbo is arguing.
Agreed, but do you mean militarily or with dialogue? The latter is not going to turn out much better that Iraq and will deepen the sentiment of Muslim anger toward the US enlisting evermore insurgents and terrorists. If we do the latter, then we give Iran and Syria an upper-hand in the region and in negotiations since we rely on their help. What a mess.
Targets for what? Military action or negotiations for stability? I know I’m repeating myself, but this kill ‘em all mentality is creating more terrorists faster than we can kill them
. At some point we need someone that can help stabilize the country. We can use them for stability, and if any get too overzealous, at least we have actual targets. At this point, killing someone like Sadr only makes ten more Sadrs who rise to fill the vacuum of power. It is a microcosm of how Iraq has worked since we toppled Saddam. Instead of lessening the chaos, these splintered groups lessen the stabilization because there is no one at the head of command. (This same situation may happen regardless if he is alive or not
, but at least someone is in control instead of mere pandemonium.)
True to a point. Presupposing that we can squelch the now-occurring genocide, our current efforts are not succeeding. Inflaming the people won’t stop it. I don’t think we can stop the current and impending bloody battles. It is a question of whether we want our boys in the middle of it or not. I think we may control it to a greater or lesser degree, and the way to control it is #2 and 3 in my options above. I have no proof for this other than what we are doing now is not curbing the current ethnic and religious tensions. Segregation has worked to lessen ethnic tensions in the past (look at a map of eastern Europe today after the fall of the Soviet bloc for an example). It is a last resort, but we are at that stage in this conflict.
It is not right to waste the future blood and treasure in a wasteful manner either out of pride just. This argument never made much sense to me. The logic goes, since we expended this much effort in a failing cause, we should waste more effort to justify the previous wasted effort. When does it end?
I’m going to pretend that you don’t mean that we are losing this war because we aren’t cheering loud enough at home instead of the actual causes: incompetence of leadership, misunderstanding of the region, and strategic blunders. That way, everything remains civil.
Sorry about the length. I tried. :)
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/
don't need to pretend specter
I am much too old, fat, ugly, and hairy to wear a cheerleader uniform. They would arrest me.
Length is fine. I tend to run off myself sometimes.
You have valid points...I am no mil strategy expert either...it's just that we are never going to convince the other of our fundamental position.
I say stay, you say go. We have lots of well articulated principles and positions to back these both up, but in the end, the culture we are now pissing off only understands defeat. We leave(redeploy) and we are wholly unable to respond to the crisis we seem to agree will follow.
We leave, and try to respond to a crisis and we will find ourselves carpet bombing from the sky and flattening large sections of conflicted areas with the collateral damage that will ensue.
We DEFINITELY agree this is a huge mess...there's that.
I believe still (and you disagree) we need to eliminate all militias militarily WITHOUT Iraqi help, and Sadr needs to die. Regardless of the initial reaction from his followers. Same snake...different writhing squirming body. And to the question about the REAL core of the insurgents?
The mullahs and clerics need to be rounded up and arrested and made to submit to the formed government's will. YES-it will piss off the faithful, and it will show the clergy is not above the democracy. No one has the sack to do it though.
It is, as you say, a mess.
We leave now, we lose the war and the hearts of those who DON'T want to live under the thumb of the Islamic state insisting it take control. I have no answers.
As much as I abhor the reasons
we are in Iraq, I feel that we have a moral obligation to not totally abandon the Iraqi people and make a concerted effort to establish some kind of stability.
Leaving their country in a shambles is not in the long term interests of the US.
It HAS to start with talk. Talking, diplomacy, negotiations with the neighbros and figuring out how to make the oil revenues and legal part of the government.
This to me seems politically worse than Viet Nam. While the casualities aren't nearly as high, the political ramifications are enormous.
Very unfortunate that this chaos has been allowed to go on for so long. It is now entrenched gangs that rule the day. If all this is local and tribal, it would seem like the best solution is the 3 state solution........ if for no other reason than to separate Sunni and Shia and the infighting. Taking the side of the Shites (Iran) against the Sunni's........ that is insanity.
So can you stop asking that silly question. What would the democrats do. Even the people who started this war don't know what to do.
A mind boggling mess. Smiling while saying it doesn't make it any better.
Yet somehow disturbing to think that weapons manufacturers are making a killing (pardon the pun) in profits.
I'm only half stupid
Curious about one point
Why WITHOUT Iraqi help? I'm inclined to think that if al-Maliki doesn't pull the trigger
himself (so to speak) his government will not be able to control the militias, Shiite and Sunni alike. I guess if we did the job then the US would be the target of resentment instead of the Iraqi government, but on the other hand it might look like we were doing the dirty work for a powerless government we were trying to prop up...
The ME seems to be at a tipping point, in Iran, Lebanon, Palestine, and most of all Iraq, and it's frustrating just how little influence we seem to have to guide events.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Paging Ender =)
Is it easy to increase the number of indents before posts become aligned? It becomes hard to follow the thread, and I think it should nest to a deeper level if it's not hard to alter.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Interesting because only this week...
... a Marine report suggested pulling out of al Anbar all together.
Pentagon Considers Moving Troops From al-Anbar Province to Baghdad
If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?
interesting indeed clc
as I just said to specter, I sure as heck don't have the magic wand. Anbar, Samarra, Fallujah, Sadr City...pick one.
It is a mess to be sure. Throwing up our hands ain't gonna help it.
I keep coming back to Tianamen(sp?) square...LA during the Rodney King riots, Kent State, the OJ verdict...Yeltsin and the tank in St. Peter's square, Reagan at the wall, and so on...and I remember that the Govt. in every instance wiped out all resistance until they were all dead or all gave in.
Harsh of course. Against civil liberties? For sure.
Do the bodies continue to pile up?
Nope.
There is a difference
between subduing unarmed non-violent demonstrators who all come into a public square and trying to fight armed guerrillas, ready to die for their cause, firing at you from their hidey holes and disappearing without a trace.
Sic semper tyrannis
Sorry.
But I don't see how even a single one of your examples is relevant or analogous to our situation in Iraq.
In Iraq, we are an occupying army fighting an entrenched, native insurgency -- that involves multiple parties that harbor ancient resentments against each other -- on top of their shared hatred of us.
Here's how many of your examples fit that situation: zero.
Historically. there is only one way to tamp down such an insurgency. And that is with overwhelming and sustained force. And by "sustained" I mean years, not months.
I just don't think such a sustained effort is going to be possible for many reasons: politically, militarily, budget-wise. Nor do I think such an effort is even wise.
I note that you have avoided commenting on my discussion of Shia versus Sunni.
As I wrote, above, your doomsday scenario is predicated on assuming a monolithic Islam. And that simply is not the case in reality and/or in Iraq.
That is precisely why I don't by the doomsday scenario you posit here and that is so often repeated as a means of bashing "ignorant liberals/Democrats" who "just don't get it."
I get it just fine. I think you guys need to quit with the globalizing/generalizing where, in fact, differences (well beyond nuance) exist.
If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?
Great!
You do exactly what I do!
I have worked for candidates on campaigns as well, and lest you think that only your family serves in the military, I have family and friends who serve in the military, as well. I have lost a friend to the war and had another friend who lost both legs and part of his right arm. And he's only 22.
I have another fasmily memeber who is currently serving in the 10th Mountain Division in Afghanistan. And I have a nephew in the Special Forces and I don't know exactly where he is at present, but I know he is deployed.
So spare me your preaching. Come down off your high horse and speak person-to-person instead of blowing more self-inflating hot air while wrapping yourself in the flag and apple pie.
As for this war, I also asked you what the plan is going forward and how our continued presence there improves the situation.
Today comes a report from The Washington Post that the Bush administration is considering the same thing old man Bush did... only a different group gets the short end of the stick:
How many times have folks at RedState written that Bush the Elder was a wimp because he didn't go after Saddam in `92, and what an ass he was because he encouraged the Shia and the Kurds to rebel against Saddam only to leave them to be slaughtered?
Well, the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree, apparently.
But one must enjoy the symmetry of leaving the Shia and Kurds to be slaughtered and now turning the tables and letting the Sunnis get their just due.
As for Iran launching nukes at Israel, I think Israel can handle their own security, thank you. They have one of the best and strongest military machines in the world, and they are perfectly capable of routing the Iranians if need be.
As for what I urge the U.S. to do, I am working toward electing an administration that is not beholden to the oil and energy giants and would actually work to improve energy efficiency -- particularly in vehicles, something the current oil-giant-friendly administration would never do -- and to disengage from the Middle East.
Tell the Saudis to, in the immortal words of Dick Cheney (who would only use such words when directed at a fellow American and never at the Saudis whose collective asses he just went and kissed) to, "Go f*** yourselves."
To watch a U.S. Vice President be forced to grovel at the feet of a Saudi oligarch is demeaning to our nation. (And according to published reports, Cheney was "summoned" by King Abdullah.)
As I have pointed out to both Ender and Steve, why didn't these gung-ho looons invade Saudi Arabia, post-9/11? That's where the vast majority of terrorists who attacked us were from. That where the Wahabi schools that preach and teach hate are. That is where the vast majority of the funding for bin Laden and other terrorism comes from.
Yet not a peep from you or your pals at RedState about that truth.
If we want to invade someone, start in Saudi Arabia, not some country that had very little or nothing to do with worldwide terrorism and nothing at all to do with the attacks on our shores.
Now, you can go on and on with your holier-than-thou pontificating on how your side defends my rights, etc., but, as I have already pointed out, that is not true.
So what is your plan in Iraq? I think we should get out. There will be a civil war there whether we stay 10 months or 10 years. (That is the parallel of Vietnam.)
What do you want to do there?
If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?
Just so I am clear about what you are saying...
are you telling me that you and other liberals were advocating the US attack Saudi Arabia following 9/11? Could you possibly point to any articles or posts, from that time, that I might read to verify that position?
This a Talking-Point-o-Matic™ that I have heard many times -- after the invasion of Iraq -- to demonstrate how stupid President Bush is, that he attacked the wrong target. Saddam Hussein presented no threat to anyone in the region, we should have left him alone and attacked Saudi Arabia. Is that correct?
Just out of curiousity, by the way, had you and the left actually advocated that position, and had the US actually followed that strategy, what do you suppose Saddam Hussein would have been doing while we were doing that?
Just wondering. Or was the "Saudi Arabia was the enemy" just empty rhetoric, like so much of what we hear from the left?
The Hinzsight Report - Citizen Journalism
Going after Saudi Arabia
became a stronger argument after we started talking about invading Iraq. Iraq seemed an inappropriate target compared to Saudi Arabia, which liberals discussed plenty before the war.
For example, this Nov. 2002 article
questions why we weren't going after Saudi Arabia:
This August, 2002 article says
that there was discussion about attacking Saudi Arabia since most of the hijackers were from there showing this was part of the public discourse (of course Bush had to repair the damage done to S.A. by this talk):
Another article saying
basically the same as the second article but from a left-wing site less than a year after 9/11.
Here is Arianna Huffington
debating with Wolf Blitzer in October, 2002 saying that S.A. would make a better target than Iraq:
Here is a Z magazine
(liberal magazine) article in Dec. 2002 making the case against S.A. fairly clear:
I can find more if you like, but this is clear evidence that liberals were discussing S.A. as a better target than Iraq before the war, and that it is not empty rhetoric or a recent meme. All of these are clearly before March 2003 also. Retract?
As to this part of your question:
1. Who cares? It wasn't our business since he was not a threat to us.
2. Probably keeping his country from disintegrating into civil war. (We are probably going to have to set up another military dictator or religious leader as head of the state once al-Maliki is booted for not living up to his 'benchmarks' here in the next 6 months).
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/
Thank you for making my point for me!
Each of those articles you linked talked about "well why not Iran?" "Why not Saudi Arabia?" "Why not North Korea?" None of them, nor have any of the liberals I have talked to or heard talk on the matter, really tried to make a concrete case of "let's go after Saudi Arabia!"
It's a strawman thrown out there to discredit what the President did. Had he attacked X, he would have been wrong for not attacking Y. It just never changes!
Again, it all boils down to, "Bush is an Idiot! Let's attack someone else, rather than who HE wants to attack!"
When, the fact of the matter is, you don't want to attack anyone. After all, 9/11 was all an inside job, and anyways, it wasn't really all that big a deal, and ... and...and...
The Hinzsight Report - Citizen Journalism
Red Herrings and Strawmen
Maybe I’m missing something, but here was your original point in your own words:
I took this as you were trying to argue that liberals only brought up Saudi Arabia after we attacked Iraq. In your words:
I then do what you requested and show you that, yes indeed, liberals were bringing up Saudi Arabia as a better target before the war (not after it as you suggest). When I give you evidence that this is not an empty, after-the-war rhetorical tactic, you switch your argument.
Two of the articles make a specific case for going after Saudi Arabia. (The others just say that Iraq is a worse choice than several other potential targets.) The first of these two articles says this (a quote from Huffington I already quoted):
How is that not making “a concrete case of ‘let's go after Saudi Arabia!’”? Seems fairly direct to me.
Most of these articles are claiming that S.A. is a more justifiable target than Iraq. Therefore, they were advocating going after Saudi Arabia. Some people just saw the pure absurdity of attacking Iraq and said, ‘hey, we have much more justified targets’. But that still serves as evidence that we were talking about hitting Saudi Arabia instead of Iraq.
How is it a strawman? You do not hear many complaints from liberals about Afghanistan (there are a few anti-war groups, but that does not reflect the majority of liberals/democrats) do you? We actually would rather see a surge there than in Iraq. So, I disagree with the way that you are framing this as a ‘you hate Bush, so whatever he does you are going to disagree with’. I hate his incompetent Iraq policy, but for a few seconds after 9/11 I thought he was doing OK in Afghanistan. Iraq is a distraction from the real war on terror. That is what CheneysLoveChild was arguing and rightly so.
Now this is both ridiculous and a strawman. Yes, some people believe in conspiracies, but not on this site. Some of us believe Bush could have heeded the warnings better, but nobody here (that I know of) believes 9/11 was an inside job. If you are going to debate the other side, please attempt to do it with some sense of respect and not jump to the lowest dregs or fringes to score points. I promise I won’t automatically think you are a KKK member in return. Fair?
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/
Some agreement here
Clearly our actions in Iraq have expanded Iran's influence in the ME, and given that the Iranian president appears to be insane that's a bad thing. I think the best hope for stability in Iraq is for al-Maliki to crack down
on the Shiite militias; if that actually happens it will diminish Iran's ability to meddle in Iraq.
Even if Iraq falls into chaos, I think Israel will hold the line just fine. They've shown a willingness and ability to take out nuclear threats before, when they bombed Osirak, and if Iran manages to get to the stage where they can produce a viable nuclear weapon I don't see Israel waiting around to see if they will use it or not.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
This right here is the problem...
You honestly think that this all started with them provoking us. You are right that history won't be appreciated in the time you have left but you miss the fact that you are a contributing element of that historical illiteracy, Haystack.
They have 20 years of taking pot shots at us and we have 50+ years of pushing them around.
Remember that we (the US and brits mainly) have been messing with them ever since we found out how useful oil was and how abundant it was in their corner of the country. Then too we used them as pawns in our idiotic cold war with the Soviets (and the USSR was guilty of the same).
We overthrew Iran's democratic government and installed a monarchy. We stole their natural resources and gave them nothing in return. We picked people like Saddam Hussein to arm and fund so that he could be our bulwark against the Iranians. We armed Israel and stood by while they have used those arms constantly on noncombatants. The Brits were responsible for the suez war because they were angry that Egypt had the temerity to want to own their own waterway. We chose to arm the Muhjahadeen to fight the soviets and then didn't care when those same psychos turned on their neighbors.
We have been provoking these people for decades, getting close to a century now. And yet you blind yourself to this and pretend it didn't happen, all so you can pretend we are the aggreived party. We were the innocents (who just happened to have military forces stationed in their homeland) who were struck without provocation. Right.
There is a very simple way to reduce the violence- disengagement. Stop getting in their faces. Stop overthrowing their governments. Stop assassinating their leaders. Stop arming their malcontents. Back way off and let them just settle down.
They will. Eventually. It'll take a while and we might have to face another few attempted attacks on us in the meantime. By all means lets thwart those attacks with solid law enforcement. But we can't retaliate or the cycle will continue.
Give them a decade or two of us just not being a**holes, and let them get used to it for a change.
That's how we win this. We cannot win this fight militarily, but we can lose it militarily.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
I dunno,
while I appreciate your point about how we got in this situation (particularly with respect to arming and supporting Saddam), we need to deal with what we have now. I don't think that isolationist withdrawal is the best way to promote the reforms that are necessary to bring stability to the ME. I'm not saying we need to invade every country or anything but we're the big kid on the block, the sole remaining superpower, and I'd just as soon we exerted a little positive influence while we can. For example, I wouldn't be surprised if there was an uprising in Iran sometime in the next five years, and I wouldn't be sorry if we did a little bit here and there to help their current leaders out the door.
I realize this sounds like "meddle more, just smarter and better!" and I guess it is, but you could also look at it as trying to undo previous mistaken meddling if you'd prefer. Personally I've always been comfortable with the idea of the US acting as a bit of a world cop to stop human rights abuses -- and our method of exerting pressure doesn't even have to be military, it can be economic incentives too (I wish we'd try this with China, for example). Probably a naive POV but there you go.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
The only option...
For the time being it is the only option left to us. Eventually, when the American brand is not poison in the middle east, we can try to some programs to promote the more moderate influences. Right now that won;t work. We send cash to the moderates and the fundies will point and call them American dogs. And it will work because we are so hated because of our bullying.
I wouldn't be surprised by an Iranian uprising either, but we have to accept that anything we do toward that end makes it distinctly less likely. If we were significantly skillful so as to covertly help them without getting caught then I'd say go for it, but does anyone honestly believe the CIA can pull that off?
Trying to undo previous meddling is what we always do. We meddled in Iran. Result? The rise of the fundies. To fix that we arm Iraq/Saddam and use them as our proxy. Result? Saddam becomes a disgusting tyrant that threatens his neighbors. To fix that we invade and lay waste to Iraq. Result? Iran becomes the ascendant power of the region.
We have to accept that each time we medle things don't get better. We are an extremely powerful country but we cannot just control the outcome. Better to accept our responsibility, and then back off and say "you know, we want to help but we just can't find a positive way to do it, so it is up to you guys (the populous of the Middle East) ti figure out your path. good luck with that."
I think in other areas of the world it is worth a shot (see my suggestion on how to deal with north korea here: http://www.swordscrossed.org/node/709
). But for the time being in the ME we are persona non grata, and need to accept that only time will fix that.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
I never suggested any such thing
as us being a victim in the greater context-you have over spun my point to make your own.
I wholly agree that we can go back 50 and make it our fault...we can go back 150 more and make it someone else's, and so on.
As brendan suggests below, the issue is how do we deal in the present?
You have your opinion, and it is strong and well articulated. While I may not share it, it is yours nonetheless.
I could not accept a disengagement as long as they seek to find us and kill us as with 9/11...I supported this President in 2000 in large part because he was talking up a good game of moderate isolationism...we know how that turned out...but isolation now is not going to bring us any closer to safety and security I am afraid.
I stand by my initial point...they want to take over...they are not just looking to get even. I can not support them taking over.
Sorry
How does doing what we've done in the past...
...lead to us becoming more secure? Isn't this exactly how we got here in the first place?
Why not try disengagement? By that I mean withdraw our troops from the middle east. Stop supporting Israel militarily. Pretty much leave off even discussing the place in our foreign policy discussions (public ones). Starve their animosity of any oxygen. Give them nothing to feed their hatred with.
They have absolutely no way of "taking us over." The threat as always is that they goad us into making mistakes.
9/11 was a flea bite. It was the merest scratch. A tiny nothing of harm to this nation. But it goaded us into freaking out and stumbling around causing ourselves all kinds of damage.
We have to be smarter.
This is psychological warfare and if we don't think then we are entirely disarmed. The way you win psychological warfare is by undercutting the opponent motives. In this case the average Arab on the street has real grievances with us. So explore those, understand which are the most important, and determine which we could acceed to without harming our interests.
In some cases what they want is what we should have been doing anyway. We shouldn;t have troops there. We shouldn;t be giving Israel armaments. Stopping then not only is right but also weakens our enemy.
I know you think agreeing to any demand will strengthen them. Maybe momentarily. But the next time they start recruiting for money and martyrs what reason does the average arab have to agree? He's gotten what he wanted and he doesn't share their dream of the calimphate. He just wanted to live his life without having american guns pointed at him.
And when the fundies don't take no for an answer who is he going to regard as the enemy? The US or fanatic who just torched his shop and threw acid in his sister's face.
Groups like al qaeda have a very noxious world view. So take the spotlight off us and let all their faults and ugliness take center stage. And keep them there by keeping us in the background.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Why not try disengagement?
LOL, no offense man - but had you proposed building a time machine and going back in time before the war and NOT starting it I would have found it more realistic than trying to find a few hundred Congressmen willing to commit political suicide.
Sic semper tyrannis
Political suicide...
Which part? Israel?
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Certainly
Campaign money laws examined:
Laws unlikely to affect Jewish giving
JTA, December 16, 2003
Sic semper tyrannis
Oh I'm not disagreeing...
...I just wanted to clarify which part you were talking about. I'm well aware that Israel operates one of the very most influential lobbying outfit in washington.
But it should be possible to break AIPAC's back. An agressive campaign of showing all the times that Israel has acted counter to our interests, especially highlighting their attack on the USS Liberty and an explanation of how they have consistently refused to abide by the extremely loose guidelines we've required on the huge ton of money we give them each year (all of which is true) should be able to turn public opinion against our "ally."
Difficult but not impossible.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Vietnam lessons in Iraq
Staying in Iraq and supporting present government would be like
staying in Vietnam with a coalition government with majority communists and S. Vietnam leaders and training soldiers that half of them are communists soldiers.
So what kind of government do we really want in Iraq. Islamic extremist theocrats in government is that acceptable to you? Is that what US should be propping up and helping in Iraq.
Should we support this kind of government ( coalition of islamic extremists) and continue to spend billions of dollars and let our children die for.
Why not just declare victory, we did our best and Iraq squandered it, go home, and if this govt would spread his terrorism outside Iraq then we strike them.
30% Sadr loyalist resigned--I say good riddance and have new elections to replace them.
All these comments
have a common thread...
This is kind of a PointyStick™ but I’m hearing the words of Robert Frost : A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
As Socrates said:
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.
Sic semper tyrannis
Interesting that haystack doesn't mind discussing these posts
... and it's his diary. So why are you upset?
If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?
Where did you get that I was "upset"? n/t
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
Hay, you are casting pearls before swine!
Yours was an excellent and thought provoking piece.
The Hinzsight Report - Citizen Journalism
What a thoghtful
and intelligent comment. But it might be wasted on the unworthy riff-raff here.
Sic semper tyrannis