Political Correctness - Who Needs it??
Are you sure you guys don't want to bring that topic in here? It seems like it is getting a bit cluttered in that other Open Thread.
So even though I don't have too much time, perhaps you can slug it out in here. If not, it's cool too.
I am heading out. Have a great Friday night!
Submitted by Ender on Fri, 2006-12-15 16:16
Comments :
Something that lept out at me...
I will absolutely argue for a person to have the right to say "nigger." Or "kike." Or "wap." Or "spic." Or "cracker." Or any other word you want to choose.
Why? Cause I believe in freedom of speech. Because repressing the word in no way prevents the opinion. And because I'd like racists to be out in the open so their idiocy can be examined and mocked appropriately.
Now does that mean they have the right to say it at work? Sure. But of course their boss also has the right to fire them for it, and I have no problem with that. Employment is not a right, and Free Speech only protects you from government censorship.
People seem to be confusing Political Correctness with simple etiquette. They are entirely different! Etiquette is an internal process of deciding what is appropriate. PC is about forcing conformity upon others. It is about thought control through language control.
It is, frankly, utterly vile and repulsive when you really examine it. I say this having been educated at one of the most incredibly PC campuses in the US (the University of Oregon). The result of which was a terrible stifling of free speech, a definite resentment created between different groups, and some of the most vicious in fighting since the Night of the Long Knives.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Wait a minute...
Who said someone couldn't say "nigger" at work? The fact that a person can get fired for using the word is the very essence of the argument.
Who is telling anyone they can't use the word? I point in my posts that it's the sanction that matters. In this case, the sanction is getting canned.
If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?
The sanction isn't PC.
The sanction here is applied by a boss who wants a harmonious workplace. Not by Herr Commandante who has a book of regulations.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
What the hell are you talking about?
You made up the entire concept of "Herr Commandante who has a book of regulations."
Where does any such book exist? What is it? Who has it? Have you seen a copy?
What are you talking about?
If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?
Dude...
...Haven't you heard about campus "speech codes"? What exactly is it you think PC is? You seem to be using the word as a synonym for "consequences" which is really superfluous since we already had both the term and the concept of consequences long before PC came about.
PC is about thought control. It is about manipulations of language in order to get rid of the "double plus ungood" thoughts. It is the very height of Orwell's "newspeak."
That is its purpose and why it was invented. That is its aim. Now is that a goal you really support?
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Yeah, I'm all for that, dewd.
The context was the workplace. You switched it to the university.
At least pay attention to the context if you want to quote me.
Thanks, dewd.
If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?
Okay...
...should a person be fired for saying "handicapped"? According to PC, and in the workplace context, he should. Do you agree?
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Do you have a job?
I'm not sure what workplace you work in, but I have never heard of that.
If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?
PC
Which part exactly is it that is throwing you? I assure you that according to PC "handicapped," as a term, is strictly verbotten. The PC term is "differently abled." "Blind" is verbotten, the correct term is "visually impaired." "Deaf" is verbotten. "Black" is verbotten. And so on, ad infinitum.
You wanted to discuss PC and you seem to be advocating for it's use. And you wanted to discuss the matter specifically in the context of a work place. So the question is whether you agree with the PC conclusion that a person using the term "handicapped" should be fired just like a person using the term "nigger"?
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Can you point me to story of where someone was fired
... for using "blind," or "handicapped?"
You claim that is the "PC conclusion" and I am simply asking for proof that what you state is even the case. Yoy're the one making the claim. Back it up.
AS for cherrypicking quotes from my posts on the subject, I have noted in numerous posts that there have been legitimate benefits from the concept of political correctness, such as people getting canned for using the term "nigger."
If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?
No...
...because fortunately PC has not become that powerful in real life as of yet.
Are you kidding me? Where do you think the term "differently abled" came from? It came from the PC movement as the supposedly acceptable term for "handicapped." I can't figure out what it is you think PC is when you keep pretending everything it stands for is foreign and wierd.
CLC, people got canned for using inflammatory speech long before PC every existed. I'm honestly getting the impression you weren't aware of that. There is absolutely no need for PC in order to fire a person for screaming "nigger" at work. If you want to justify it you'll have to do a lot better.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Nice, spin, Tlaloc
Here's what you wrote:
I asked you to provide even a single example of someone being fired for using the term "handicapped" in a workplace.
You have zip.
Just more crap.
If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?
Hold on now:
I think you have PC confused with another term: "accuracy"
A lot of visually impaired people don't like being called "blind" because... wait for it!... they're not blind. There is a difference.
And you can't be fired for it, and you can't be sanctioned for it.
In fact, this is what usually happens in cases like this, in real life:
"Hey, I didn't realize she was blind."
"She's not blind - she's visually impaired."
"Um... okay." (walks off, thinking "frigging PC police!")
Move to something like official language in the case of government or university policy, and "blind" people will often petition for broader, more inclusive language - not because they're weak-bellied platitude-spouting liberal morons - but because the terminology covers a broader range of people, i.e. the people it's supposed to cover.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Problem...
...is that according to PC you are not allowed to say a blind person is "blind." You must refer to them as "visually imparied." Hence PC is no better in terms of accuracy (it also uses the same term to apply to two different states).
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Speech Codes are PC by definition?
Well, welcome to being PC
then.
PC was invented? How amazing. Who invented it and when? I mean, you know their purpose, so clearly you must know their identity.
The poster also has the Official PC Rule Book apparently
... which can be enforced by the Official PC Police who are able to send offenders off to a gulag without benefit of trial.
If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?
Bush is the PC Police?
Boy are we in trouble.
Rendition
It's new hot word in PC.
If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?
Speech codes...
...are not inherently PC, but that is where PC really got going.
Amazing? Everything conforms to one of three groups:
1) exists independent of us
2) we invented
3) doesn't exist at all
PC isn't 1, and unfortunately isn't 3. Kind of narrows down the list a bit.
Let me ask you a question: do you know who invented the hard drive? No? But then you can't possibly know what it is for...
Oh wait, yes, you can. Because by observing the action of a thing you can often discern the purpose, assuming the thing was purposefully created.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
I don't think Cheneys
has been in college in the last couple of decades. What a horror show - positively orwellian. The thought police was everywhere - professors enforced it, you couldn't be in student government unless you bowed down to the lords of pc, and there could've been serious repercussions for speaking out.
In the private sector the consequences of misspeaking are probably worse. People are just waiting to sue (and we've had some horror stories in our company) over stuff 1000 times less offensive than the N word.
In that sense we are probably much worse than even Europe, and that's sad.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Tell me a horror story from your company.
I'd like to hear one. Seriously.
College campuses are a different matter. There has been an overreach there, no doubt.
As I have pointed out, there have been some good outcomes and not-so-good outcomes from PC.
But I also note that the whacked out religious right wing and the whole evolution debate is just as stupid from the other side as any discussion of PC. How about the Terri Schiavo case?
The whole Christmas nonsense is simply more of the "Christians-as-victims" routine which is laughable in the extreme considering Christian influence in this country.
What a bunch of whining crybabies. Why don't they pray to Jesus to change things? How come that doesn't work? Does Jesus not care about people saying "Happy holidays" in place of Merry Christmas?"
If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?
Tell me a horror story from your company.
I'd like to hear one. Seriously.
College campuses are a different matter. There has been an overreach there, no doubt.
As I have pointed out, there have been some good outcomes and not-so-good outcomes from PC.
But I also note that the whacked out religious right wing and the whole evolution debate is just as stupid from the other side as any discussion of PC. How about the Terri Schiavo case?
The whole Christmas nonsense is simply more of the "Christians-as-victims" routine which is laughable in the extreme considering Christian influence in this country.
What a bunch of whining crybabies. Why don't they pray to Jesus to change things? How come that doesn't work? Does Jesus not care about people saying "Happy holidays" in place of Merry Christmas?"
If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?
I am very confused by what you mean.
If it is OK for a boss to fire you for expressing a word or opinion, especially if that opinion is not job related ( like you were a carpenter or something).
How is it not OK for a School (or university) not to do the same thing, especially if it 1. is job related (you are supposed to teach what they tell you to teach, freedom to vary that is granted by liberals but not the conservatives who are complaining) 2. they have let you know the specifics beforehand, in written form.
Now I might take issue with a ban that does not affect the quality of the work or environment that others have to work under. But every boss is "Herr Comandente" to their employees, and I don't see how you are differentiating based on job description.
Edited to clarify that to argue for the rights of only the people you agree with is not an honorable position.
The Self Made Man is just not admitting where he got all the parts.
Oh my god. PLEASE say it isn't so ...
I actually COMPLETELY agree with this post.
http://www.swordscrossed.org/node/849#comment-39047
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
It's a silly concept
As far as I know there is no law that curtails freedom of speech in the same way that class, good manners or civility normally would.
Sic semper tyrannis
You obviously haven't read the PC lawbook.
Or whatever our friend here is claiming exists.
If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?
'less it's a constitutional amendment
it can't trump the 1st amendment.
Sic semper tyrannis
The latest battle in the War on Christmas
This whole thing about Christmas is getting way out of hand.
Link
Here's how I look at it -- If I were living in Israel or in Lebanon would I be offended if there were public displays deling with a Jewish or Islamic holiday? Would I expect such displays to be curtailed to avoid offending me and other Christians?
Of course not. If I'm living in Israel and don't see a big deal being made about Passover or Yom Kippur, I'm gonna wonder what the hell is wrong.
Anyone who lives in America and wants December to be scrubbed of all religious references is living in Dreamland. Anyone who is deeply offended by the Baby Jesus in a manger needs to grow up.
qui tacet consentire
While I agree...
...that such an issue is silly (that is silencing of christmas carols to prevent someone from being offended), I am given great pause by your comparing the US to states that are extremely religious in nature. Israel is an explicitly judaic country. Lebanon is a bit more mixed but is still heavily controlled by a variety of sectarian parties.
I really hope the US is not directly comparable to either case.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
I have to say
that I agree almost completely with both you and tlaloc in this thread. PC in all areas blows and most of the people who claim to not notice it's harmful effects are the ones who are the biggest enforcers. The freaks like the ones in that school have no common sense and I am not sure why they are in charge of the schools.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
How about the Kansas Board of Ed
(now mostly replaced) who wanted to quit teaching evolution? Talk about lunatics being in charge of schools...
If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?
Reread that story:
I'd hardly consider it an example of PC out of control, except from the point of view of one idiotic town official. And no one was "offended" by anything: they told the choir to stop singing because they thought someone else was going to be offended.
Now, compare that to the mass movement to boycott stores that don't wish you a "Merry Christmas."
Large-scale PC movement? Nope. Anti-Christmas movement? Nope.
Anti-PC, pro-Christian to the point of shoving it down our throats movement? Yep.
So there you go.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Hacking Clacks And Wolves in Sheeps Clothing
"How can they decry gay unions and then fail to decry Mary Cheney's lifestyle?"
asks Andrew Sullivan.
The Christian ideal as exemplifed by Leon H. Wolf.
"To suggest that the conservative ideal for the family is somehow negated by the very existence of a homosexual woman bearing a child out of wedlock, who happens to be related to a Republican politician, is to expose yourself (yet further) as a hack." quacks Leon.
What is PC
according to Leon
...... perhaps if Christians Republicans would not make such a fuss over these matters that are private and harm no one, while claiming the holiest of moral highground, they wouldn't get so dizzy when they look at those who are "sinners", like Mary who want to live their lives without your "moral" judgements put into the constitution.
The moral of the story, why are you that "know you hearts" so still and quiet suddenly, about Mary, when the good book says their evangelical mission to spread the good news and convert the sinner and show them the error of their ways? Oh, is it suddenly a matter of privacy and ideals?
It is the economy, stupid.