SSMTW Open Thread
Weekend stories:
Obama believes the stimulus will start making a difference Real Soon Now.
Roland Burris will not seek election to his Senate seat.
Monday's stories:
Judge Sotomayor's confirmation hearings start today.
A South Korean TV station is reporting the North Korean dictator Kim Jong Il is suffering from cancer .
Wednesday's stories:
The House has their health care bill ready to be reported out of committee. The Senate is still working on a compromise bill that will get 60 votes.
President Obama also has a plan for funding community colleges . His plan is to spend $12 billion over 10 years. How to pay for it? The plan is to "end the role of private banks in the federal education lending system."
And a special announcement from your friendly moderator...
It doesn't take a look back through posting history to realize that the quality of discourse has dropped off recently. Perhaps this is because of the lack of attention that is paid to having new open threads and thoughful diaries. If it is that, hopefully I can get us back on track by putting in a bit more daily effort. John, Ender, and the rest of the old mod team have had their plate full for awhile (and I don't fault them for it); maybe that is why standards have slipped.
In any case, I'll put in a bit more effort to the site and try to contribute a bit more. In addition, let's all try to be respectful of other posters and their ideas. Discussions can be heated (and if we're doing it right, they should be!), but let's bear in mind the site rules and that we're all friends here. If we wanted to just hear ourselves type, Daily Kos and Redstate serve us just fine. Disagreements will happen, but we can keep everything above board without ad hominems or bad-faith arguments.
Do also bear in mind the pitfalls of text-based communication. Much of communication is body language, which we don't have here. Therefore we project our emotions on to others' comments. Assume good faith and we won't be getting the wrong idea which leads us downhill.
That's enough from me. On with the sword fighting!

Comments :
Also announcing
An update to the moderators page
.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Let the liberal games begin...
...we could call this one "Palin-ize 'em 2: The Firefighters
".
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
You're right
Ricci is a non-issue. The SCOTUS broke 5-4 and overturned previous precedent.
And Mr. Ricci's personal life isn't on trial. Sotomayor's fitness to faithfully interpret the Constitution is.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Professional victimhood comes to the right
The issue is again one of hypocrisy.
Poor poor Ricci has made a career out of victimhood and litigation. Things the right used to hate?
It's humorous actually that the CATO institute is coming to Ricci's defense.
Poor poor Palin. The librul media was so mean to her, that after she announced she was resigning as governor, she invited the whole of librul media inside the arctic circle for multiple interviews with multiple networks, including ultra librul Andrea Mitchel from *gasp* MSNBC.
I'm only half stupid
I agree with you about Palin, but not about the Ricci case.
Here's why:
It's agreed that Sara Palin was a horrible joke as a governor, and it's just as well that she resigned. She was definitely, if anything, a victim of her own actions and behaviours. People saw through her BS and didn't want any more of it.
Ricci, on the other hand, although he's a white guy of Italian-Catholic descent, had a disability (dyslexia) that he fought hard to overcome and lead a normal, productive life, like most people. Therefore, having had certain (undisclosed) difficulties of my own in the past that I, too had to fight against, I do have a certain amount of sympathy for Ricci and believe that he should be given a chance. The ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act), which was created in the early 1990's, is meant to help people with varying disabilities (one doesn't have to be in a wheelchair or be mentally retarded, for instance, to be disabled in some way) to have jobs and lead normal lives.
While various legitimate affirmative action programs have required employers to actively recruit women and non-white minorities, there've been no programs requiring employers to recruit people with varying disabilities. The ADA was created to make sure that recruitment of people with disabilities (who are able to work, of course) also have access to gainful employment.
I view this as very telling in terms of who the real Obama is...
Chavez sure seems to feel he has something to say about what US policy should be
...
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
So then
If Chavez, Morales, and Ortega say that 2+2=4 and Obama agrees, that means he's in league with them? Is Obama then required to declare 2+2=5? Our friend Andrew Breitbart seems to believe in guilt by association.
The information is sketchy out of Honduras. I know Zelaya was attempting to amend the Constitution to be able to run for another term. I know the Supreme Court shot him down once when he wanted the plebicite to be binding, and yet again when it was changed to be non-binding.
The Supreme Court issued an order for his arrest for treason. Even assuming their Supreme Court has that power (I have no idea if they do), the military stormed his residence and threw him on a plane to Costa Rica -- not really an arrest. Call me old-fashioned, but I'd think when someone is charged with a crime, they get their day in court to rebut the charges. And usually the penalty for treason is not removal from the country in the early hours of the morning, but in most cases death.
I think by any reasonable definition this was a coup. Zelaya was no saint, but he should be prosecuted in a public trial where he has to answer for any alleged crimes he committed, not spirited away by the military.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Whichever...
...but he should certainly not be returned to office.
And that is what Obama is advocating.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Why not?
He should be returned to office and then removed legally.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
I forgot to mention
Obama's comments also echo that of the UN and EU, something Mr. Breitbart and Rep. Mack conveniently neglected to mention.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
It doesn't matter.
whether you mention the UN or the EU.
In fact if you are trying to convince someone on he right that a certain action is good or bad citing the UN or the EU is like waving a red flag, since they have a specific and particular disdain for both.
In fact now that I think about it, the right has a specific and particular disdain for almost everything. :)
I'm only half stupid
The Legacy of the Supreme Court
The very Court that delivered Bush the Presidency could now change a century old ruling that has prevented big corporations from directly donating to politicians campaigns. If this Court rules in favor of Citizens United you can kiss any hope for citizen based American democracy good-bye.
I pray that Scalia shows his rebel stripes and again votes with the liberals on the bench to support the rights of the little guy against the vast resources of multinational corporations.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/07/13/the_real_court_radicals.html
I'm only half stupid
It's an interesting question
The 14th amendment has been construed (wrongly, IMO) to apply to corporations. If you make the assumption that they are, I don't see how anyone could vote against Citizens United.
Corporate personhood is the root of the problem. Eliminate that and I think you'll find just about everything relating to corporate influence of X, Y, or Z goes out the window.
The funny thing about corporate personhood is that it was never explicitly decided, but is owed to a footnote entered by a court reporter in Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Wow!
Not very many folks know that about that old railroad case. That damn clerk.
I don't see corporate personhood as legally rational. A person has no way to compete on an individual basis with a mega-corporation. It not even a contest. I don't see it ever being overturned, though, cause there is way too much money at stake.
I believe the precedent of McCain/Feingold, would prevent a ruling in favor of Citizens United. Something about 60 days before an election.
I also don't see how they can claim any rationale whatsoever for not declaring the who funded ( I would love to know ) the movie, which is a political hit piece on Hillary.
The big joke here, is that Citizens United claims on their web site to be for the little guy, which is exactly the opposite of the truth.
I'm only half stupid
But you still get seen, right?
This Yglesias post
is interesting to say the least (any emphasis is his):
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
The scary part about the CIA/Cheney story
Is not that Cheney told the CIA to keep it quiet from congress.
No... the scary part is this:
From January 20 to June 23 of this year... more than five months.... the CIA was running a clandestine operation that Leon Panetta, the director of the CIA, didn't know about.
Which also means that... Barack Obama, the President of the United States, didn't know about it either.
The fact that a clandestine program begun by the previous administration can be in operation for over 5 months before the President of the freakin' United States or the Director of the freakin' CIA find out about its existence is....... treason.
In 1963, a young President was assassinated. Many rumors persist to this day that the CIA had something to do with it.
"No way," say most people. "There's no way the CIA could do that without someone in the executive branch knowing it."
Well... It's 2009. And the CIA had/has at least one program in place that the President of the United States and his Director of the CIA didn't know about.
If it can happen in 2009, it certainly could have happened in 1963.
Forget the fact that this proves Nancy Pelosi right about the CIA lying to congress. That's small time.
The fact that parts of the CIA are still operating with loyalty to the FORMER administration and hiding information from the CURRENT administration should be chilling to all Americans.
ex-Vice President Cheney has loyalists from his "shadow government" in place from foggy bottom to Langley and all points in between.
Watch your back, Mr. President.
I survived the Bush Administration
You should change your signature line...
...the Bush administration evidently still haunts your every waking moment...
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Maybe you should change your sig line
to this.
http://www.swordscrossed.org/diary/20090707/nonae-caprotinae-open-thread...
I'm only half stupid
Good thought...we'll see...
...thanks for jumping in and offering your 2 cents though...
We sure got our money's worth as usual... ;-/
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Nice comeback... typical avoidance of the issue, though
Maybe you should address the point of my post.
Is it acceptable to you that the President of the United States and the Director of the CIA were kept in the dark about a CIA program for nearly 5 months?
Let's not even talk about the merits of the actual program. It could be any program.
Is it acceptable for elements within the CIA to keep the Director of the CIA, their boss, in the dark about a clandestine operation?
If you think so.... why?
Would you have been comfortable with the CIA keeping a Clinton-era initiative secret from Bush and Tenet five months into Bush's Presidency?
I survived the Bush Administration
Let's wait and see...
...of course I am as guilty of a distrustful eye towards this administration as you are of the last...I just thought the sig line was amusing in light of that fact...
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
You should change YOUR sig line, in the interest of accuracy
Thomas Jefferson never made that quote.
http://wiki.monticello.org/mediawiki/index.php/Bad_government_results_from_too_much_government_(Quotation
)
John Sharp Williams made the quote in 1950, and falsely attributed it to Jefferson.
You might like and fully agree with the quote, but claiming it was made by Jefferson is to perpetuate a myth.
More discussion of this here:
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/j/jefferson-quotes.htm
I survived the Bush Administration
And so it seems it should...touche'...LOL!
...even better...Thanks ;-)
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Thank God - A new open thread finally... ;-)
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
The stimulus is working well
in China!
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601068&sid=aXwMekKnYD6I
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/17/business/global/17gdp.html?hp
The Chinese Stimulus was larger than the US, and focused on infrastructure. There was also some protectionism on trade, to ensure that the money used would target jobs that stayed in China.
The Chinese Plan also focused on aggressive bank lending. The 'experts' are somewhat surprised since exports in China are down. The growth rate for the Chinese economy was set at an ambitious 8 percent, with the foresight to understand that unemployment and joblessness could create potential social unrest.
No matter how one feels about China, we are a global economy now, and the Chinese economic growth will help lift the global economy generally.
Thank heavens the Republicans here in the US stymied and obstructed the infrastructure piece of the US stimulus, and cut some of the delivery funding for projects, with that good old fashioned GOP = "No We Can't" Can Not Do spirit.
I'm only half stupid
Some protectionism in trade - LOL!
...you might want to polish up on your understanding of the Chinese economy and how they do business there ML! ;-/
We spent trillions on a mismanaged stimulus, bailing out banks and insurance companies, buying car companies, we are foolishly considering cap and trade, and we're spending another trillion + dollars on nationalized health care we just don't have to spend.
Working so far ML? Not where the rubber meets the road it isn't!
Your infallible leader is like a 16 year old with her first Nordstroms card. who just can't stop spending, and doesn't get that the bill IS COMING DUE!
Well they're getting that point in New York that's for sure!!!
Given this
, it seems things are catching up with them...
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Senator Jon Kyl (R) Arizona
gripes and whines that the stimulus is just not working. He said that it could just be *stopped* now, before (insert horrendous disaster analogy and scary big government talk here.)
Calling his bluff, ex-Republican Roy LaHood, and others in the Obama administration wrote to key Arizona officials and said they would be happy to honor Senator Kyl's wishes and discontinue the stimulus funds to Arizona.
http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/azdc/57749
Senator McCain was quick to respond that he supported every single word that Senator Kyl uttered, but was very seriously disturbed by the Obama administrations 'threats'.
I'm only half stupid
Porkulous Heaven
*snort*
Very clever Mr. President, calling investment in America, 'stimulus', when we all know it is just good old fashioned pork, waste, and borrowing.
That's right Mr. Cantor, yet you happily labeled such debt 'investment' when your party was in power.
I'm only half stupid
Investment, or pork, unecessary borrowing & wasteful spending..
...Eric Cantor is 100% correct
.
To think Obama put...Joe Biden...Joe Biden...in charge of making sure this gets this done right...? Well that can only be described as an example of his typical 6 degree of separation culpability routine...I mean please...he keeps telling us this is the worst economic crisis since the great depression...and we get Joe Biden...listen, it was doomed to failure from the start, but with JB at the helm, why even start?
Obama has made this whole mess worse, way worse ML,
not better.
LOL!
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
You have no standing good sir
Man volunteers to go to Afghanistan, even though he can decide not to, sues Obama to avoid going, case gets thrown out for lack of subject matter jurisdiction.
http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/292/story/779031.html?storylink=omni_popular
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Democrats just amaze me sometimes...
This diary from Leon over at RedState
outlines the bizzare forms of racism liberals practice.
Suffering from this phenomenon Boxer evidently believes even though this is a matter of Cap & Trade, because this this man is black, she can put him in "his place" by curiously quoting the likes of the NAACP, etc...
And there's even more Democrats behaving this way beneath the fold over at RS if you are having trouble being convinced...
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
You are joking right
BB cited a black study that disagreed with Alford's opinion. Alford took offense that BB had the audacity to cite a black study that disagreed with him.
Only you and your friends on the right could twist this into a screed that Barbara Boxer is a racist.
Congratulations on another stupid hit piece against a white female democrat that has no factual basis.
I will note that Alford makes a perfect new Republican with his victimization ploy.
I'm only half stupid
Way to put that blind spin on reality ML...
...she proceded to recite black sources...till he questioned her rationale...
You certainly provide ample reason to question yours.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
This is just another stupid hit piece
by the right. An attempt to drum up something out of thin air.
The black dude was insulted that the white lady used a black source to contradict him. As if to say how dare you use my people against me.
And you and the brilliant Leon are claiming that's Boxer's fault? If anything this demonstrates the older black generations inability to let go of racial identity and victimization from years ago. It is the black guy that is playing up a race card here, not Barbara Boxer.
My source is my eyes and ears. I don't know what you perceive to hear and see behind every corner, but it seems to border on the paranoid delusional. Go ahead and make yourself happy and pretend like you are really on to something here.
I'm only half stupid
Alford has a point
Why was it necessary for Boxer to rebut his positon by citing black sources? Does the Black Chamber of Commerce not qualify as equals with, say, the White Chamber of Commerce? I'm just as puzzled as Alford.
And, in the accepted tradition of political correctness, he was offended, so the words were de facto offensive and racist, yes?
Boxer, IIRC, is not especially well liked in California. This video might just be one example of why.
sshheeeeeshh
How condescending.
That's like saying you can't use Republicans or Republican sources to rebut Republican talking points.
So she was supposed to use the white chamber of commerce as her citation? Wow! It's politically incorrect to quote black sources!!?? Okay, whatever. Alford has a point.
Whether BB is liked or not should have no bearing on whether you consider her a 'racist' for quoting black sources.
We all have a point.
I'm only half stupid
You miss the point(s)
I didn't say she couldn't. I asked why she felt that was more appropriate than any other group she could have used...why chose the NAACP? Just because he's representing the Black CoC? Explain that one to me.
No, it's politically incorrect to use offensive language.
And the offensive language is.....
not there. BB was polite and calm.
That she cited a black or white study should be completely irrelevant. Period.
The only person whose language was offensive was Alford's, who was trumping up a perceived racial slight, quoting a black source offended him because he was black, (????). That has got to be the stupidest argument I have ever heard.
Alford was using some imagined slight to score political points to game the argument, by muzzling Boxer with claims that she is a racist.
Alford's argument is vapid at best. He couldn't answer the original question, and dodged the argument by crying racism. The discussion on the original point of climate was immediately lost.
If Alford had a point, it got lost because he trivialized the debate. But he was losing the argument anyway. Pulling out the race card conveniently obscured that little detail.
I'm only half stupid
I must say it is amusing
that centinel, whose Republican party claims to deplore political correctness, particularly as it pertains to racism (they don't see color only accomplishment) is now suddenly enamored with Alford's use of the race card, only because the guy who cried racist happened to be on his side of the argument.
I'm only half stupid
a Red Stater agrees with me
Another perspective.
http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2009/07/17/harry-alford-revisited/#comm...
I'm only half stupid
Liberals do post on RS too ML...
...duh.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
pish tosh
Anyone that is outed as a liberal on RS gets blammed.
Someone that says stuff like
"I am no fan of Boxer and her ilk"
"His [Alford] website is a Hope and Change dedication to Obama"
" [He]..call anyone who questions her (Sotomayor) many racist comments a bigot."
"Sorry as much as I despise Boxer"
This person is not a liberal, trust me.
It may come as a shock to you but there are some that don't fall in line and march in lockstep with your spoon fed conservative talking points.
So this guy agrees that Sotomayor is definitely a racist, yet doesn't agree that the Alfords website proves anything other than that Alford is rabid Hope and Change Obama supporter. Really you should be pleased. He is essentially indirectly calling Obama and Alford racists. I would think you would jumping up and down with gleeful agreement.
I'm only half stupid
an objective liberal perhaps...
...look, for boxer to bring up these black references to dispel... cap and trade... to the head of the US Black Chamber of Commerce, and then to say she was showing there are differences of opinion in the Black Community, is ridiculous!
Was there a question about the black community having diversity of opinion for God sakes...
Only a liberal would do such a blatently racist thing and find no fault in it...What a crock!
He found it offensive, as did virtually every objective looker on, with the exception of "spoon fed" propagandizing fools such as yourself.
You should be ashamed of the lengths you go to in the name of defending anything on the left.
I have so much more to say on the matter...butl you get the drift.
(Are you up to your old don't watch the video or read the link and just post what I've gleened off MSNBC routine again ML?)
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Go argue with
your friend on Red State.
You are making a mountain out of a molehill. But hey, enjoy.......!
I'm only half stupid
I think you recall incorrectly
So says wiki
, so say we all:
It's been awhile, but no one stands a chance against her in an election.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Thanks
nt
Just another one of what ML calls "a stupid hit piece"...
...but facts are stubborn things
.
It certainly doesn't require a degree in economics to understand Obama is just completely F'ing our country and our economy over!
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
That can do spirit again.
We are all gonna die! It's over. The debt.
Nevermind that after WWll, we seemed to come together as a nation to pay off the enormous debts that were accrued.
Nevermind that China's stimulus is working, because it was bigger and better than ours, and their GDP is actually growing at a rate of 8%.
If it weren't for all the suffering, I'd love to see your version of the help America act.
No jobs. No schools. Lots of homeless people. But hey, the good news is those homeless folks wouldn't be paying any taxes, so you could say their freedom quotient was high! Yeah!
I'm only half stupid
*cough*
Liberty quotient. :-)
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
China is a whole different story ML!
You come off as incompetent as to even discuss these things when you're saying things like;
It is as much a case of apples and oranges as one could site.
You just keep ignoring the real facts, like the continual stream of warnings coming out of the CBO, the same CBO the liberals always touted as the gold standard in non-partisan economic analysis, and just keep making up facts of your own...
...it seems the only way you can cope with this stuff.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
How much did you care about the CBO
when Bush was President.
The CBO did a report on how much the Bush tax cuts would cost, Was that important to you at the time? Or did you even know it existed.
The fact is China's stimulus is working, largely because it was much bigger than ours, and they had some trade restrictions to keep jobs in China. Their economy is growing. You can clamour all you want but them's the facts.
The CBO report on the Iraq War estimated a cost of 2 Trillion. Did you care about the vaunted CBO then?
The reality is that the Bush Tax Cuts, The Unsupervised Private Contract Spending in Iraq, and asking Wall Street Banks politely to voluntarily follow regulations, put this country in a great big hole.
China understands that the only way out is stimulus. You and your ilk don't get that. Tax cuts increased the deficit. In order to close the gap the Bush tax cuts need to be expired.
I'm only half stupid
I cared a lot, unlike you I was critical of Bush...
...and his haywired spending.
Oh look, more good rcovery news just in from Drudge;
SPENDING SCARED: WHITE HOUSE PUTS OFF RELEASE OF BUDGET UPDATE...








RECOVERY.GOV // AWARDED: $2,531,600 FOR 'HAM, WATER ADDED, COOKED, FROZEN, SLICED, 2-LB'...
RECOVERY.GOV // AWARDED: $1,191,200 FOR '2 POUND FROZEN HAM SLICED'...
RECOVERY.GOV // AWARDED: $351,807 FOR 'REPLACE AND UPGRADE THE DUMBWAITER'...
RECOVERY.GOV // AWARDED: $1,562,568 FOR 'MOZZARELLA CHEESE'...
RECOVERY.GOV // AWARDED: $5,708,260 FOR 'PROCESS CHEESE'...
RECOVERY.GOV // AWARDED: $16,784,272 FOR 'CANNED PORK'...
RECOVERY.GOV // AWARDED: $1,444,100 FOR 'REPAIR DOOR BLDG 5112'...
RECOVERY.GOV // AWARDED: $541,119 FOR 'INSTALL TRAFFIC SIGNAL'...
Boy, we should be seeing the stimulative effect of this stimulus spending kick in any time now eh ML?
LOL!
What a farse!
Agriculture Sec. Vilsack: 'Purchased 760,000 Lbs of ham at cost of approximately $1.50 per pound'...

FOOD LION: $.79 Lb...
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
I don't care for your snippy, know it all
attitude, Mr. :-
You pretend to know what's in my mind. "I cared a lot unlike you?" Arrogant much?
Happy to see you read the National Enquirer, er I mean Drudge..... the soap opera digest of news.
Spend more I say. We need the stimiulus and the jobs.
I'm only half stupid
Grammar check ;-)
I believe you have been misunderstood. To eliminate ambiguity, I'm restating what you said. Please comment if I interpreted you incorrectly.
Which I interpret as
"I cared a lot about CBO reports when Bush was president. Unlike you who are not critical of Obama's actions, I was critical of Bush's actions and Bush's spending"
KTHXBI
Define your world.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/
Under Bush my taxes went down $250, and my health care premiums went up 5,000.
Did the CBO report that?
(Yes it is inappropriate for me to reply to your post to centinel)
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/7/20/755597/-Under-Bush,-my-taxes-went-down-$250-and-my-health-insurance-premiums-went-up-$5,000
I'm only half stupid
Yes thats what I meant, sorry for the ambiguity...
...abd thx for clarifing it... ;-)
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
It's been every President since FDR
Save one William Jefferson Clinton, who left us in better fiscal shape than when he showed up.
Taxes must be raised and services must be cut. There is no other way out other than debasing the currency.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Let's start with
defense boondoggles and farm subsidies. Maybe get tough with some appropriations bills to show we mean business.
I'd also like to look at taxing all those no-value added financial transaction shenanigans. I mean, we now have mutual funds whose holdings consist entirely of other mutual funds, for chrissakes. The last fund my advisor tried to sell me had a plurality of holdings in guess what, financial institutions. It's all very incestuous, illusiory and counterproductive to the economy as a whole.
/rant.
Considering what Carter inherited
I thought he didn't do too badly either.
And Johnson, dispite the terrible waste of Vietnam, kept the real economy growing at an impressive pace in the '60s. He certainly expanded the tax base, if nothing else.
Meh, what I'm really trying to say is that Democratic presidents are responsible fiscal managers and Republican presidents are not.
Meh
You couldn't of f'd up an American fortune 500 company in the 1960's if you had bozo running the country.
As for Carter, double meh! ;-)
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Possibly, but why is that?
Why were the 60s so prosperous? I would have though all the hippies, weed and war spending would have tamped down growth.
Hmm, maybe it was the cumulation of decades of Democratic dominance (+ the moderate Eisenhower), high marginal rates, powerful unions and emphasis on public investment and scientific innovation. A huge middle class tax base and tons of domestic manufacturing couldn't have hurt either.
Or maybe it was demographics: the tail end of the baby boom meant there was a huge, capable relatively educated workforce entering the marketplace. Now watch this: there were so many boomers because so many American WWII vets actually returned home from the front. Which was a consequence of good war leadership. Under a Democratic administration :)
So many half truths Corph...
Hippies were a fringe element that had no bearing on the economy.
The government in the 50's and 60's was a fraction of the monstrosity it has become today.
Now watch this: Democrats of old were really SoCons of today. Truman and Eisenhower would have been in the Republican Party had they lived in this era. :-)
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
They were populists.
They may have been socially conservative but they were economically liberal.
Are you sure the government, in real dollars and/or real % of household income, was less intrusive back then? Would you prefer the marginal rates of the 50s and 60s?
Besides, "big government" is an oversimplification. There are wasteful government programs, and there are programs that improve people's lives and protect their freedoms.
Eisenhower was a Republican, but he called those who wanted to unravel social security a "fringe" and "stupid". How would a Republican who said that fare today? The Rockefeller/Weicker/Chafee faction has all but disappeared.
No eco-nazis
Being able to dump whatever toxic crap you generated as a byproduct into the nearest convenient stream/lake/ocean probably made it easier to reap healthy profits as well.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
I daresay, however, that
The economy doesn't seem to be improving right now, despite the fact that there's a Democratic President in the White House. Just saying....
Oops meant to reply to you
but it got posted as a reply to the original post, downthread.
Err...
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Joe thinks old people are stupid too...
Boy, where have we heard this tactic before...
Yep...I said it before, evidently there is no need to say it again as Joe says it all on his own...He's an idiot!
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
In case you missed it
medicare costs are an unfunded liability that does threaten our economic health.
The health care reform is set to cut back costs in medicare, which has been turned into a cash cow.
Joe is right, and he is not an idiot.
All the whining you do about the economy, yet you forget how you cheered for tax cuts for the rich during a time of war.
Did those tax cuts for the wealthy, create less government or more government? As I recall there was a huge amount of government expansion after the tax cuts went into place. Your argument that tax cuts creates less government is meaningless. It created more government with less oversight and a wider gap between rich and poor.
I'm only half stupid
Democrat-supported huh
I wonder what's wrong with "Democratic health care plan". When you capitalize the "D" there's no ambiguity between party and philosophy.
Anyhoo, so excessive government spending can bankrupt the nation. Fine. But then why can't excessive private spending? We're wasting a ton of money on unnecessary paperwork and procedures because insurance companies' skewed profit motive. We liberals have come to the conclusion that a public plan will use healthcare dollars far more efficiently that our current public-private patchwork mess. We have data to show this.
I would actually prefer not to have thirty different plans to choose from, each with its own fine print about how they'll try to avoid paying out. I'm healthy and relatively young, and in a high tax bracket. My neighbor (my age) has a herniated disc and a host of other health problems beyond her control. I have no problem with my tax dollars going to my neighbor's treatments, physiotherapy and work time replacement because at least I'm not in her shoes. I'd rather not spend hours trying to find a plan that avoids covering people like her just to save a few bucks.
Where have you really been, liberal propaganda camp...
Ha! Show me any govenment program that has met that criteria!
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Medicare.
And that despite being banned from negotiating lower drug prices. They know they have to cover everyone, so they don't screen for pre-existing conditions and waste resources on administrative costs.
The VA.
Canada.
Britain.
Austrailia.
France.
Germany.
I can show it in terms of outcomes, quality-adjusted life years, life expectancy or mortality rates. They all have their shortcomings, some of them serious. They all do way better than the US.
Give it a year or so
right now the Dow & unemployment are both up, so the results are mixed.
The problem with judging Obama's economic performance now is this: few would argue against the notion there was tons of downward economic momentum in January. Which means that before you can reasonably expect growth, new policies have to slow and stop the fall.
I'm not trying to move the goalposts here, just trying to be realistic. Short of a complete federal takeover of the economy I don't see how any president could have prevented further job losses in six months under these conditions. I'd be OK with using the historical lag of unemployement after the Dow turnaround as a performance benchmark (need to look that up).
I, like many liberals, believe Obama was far too accommodating of investment banks' interests. I want to see the GDP share of the financial services industry plummet in the next decade. I want banking to go back to being a boring, predicable business and if that involves a Federal Special Lending Reserve (kind of like Fannie or Freddie I guess, but targeted at stimulus projects) accompanied by major Wall Street upheavel, so be it.
My prediction is that the Obama economy will do OK, far better than Bush's (because he's not stupid, lazy and fundamentally corrupt) but not nearly as well as Clinton's. Partly because there can only be one internet gold rush, and partly because Bush's policies did so much damage that new underlying weaknesses in our economy will gimp any growth.
I'm admittedly not that optomistic, corph.
I have to disagree with you, corph. First of all, the stimulus package that was supposed to create jobs didn't work, because it took the form of 42% tax cuts, which only served t o keep t he economy in t he doldrums, where it is right now. I do agree that Obama concentrated too much on bailing out the banks, etc. Why do you want to see the financial industry service plummet? Just curious.
The healthcare plan that Obama has for passing isn't very good, it was extremely hypocritical of him to step up our war in Afghanistan and send more troops there and not start to pull our troops out of Iraq like he should've. Pakistan is now a mess, because Afghan refugees are streaming over into that country. How the hell are we supposed to have money for necessary things back here at home when our government continues to squander it by invading other countries with impunity. Obama's refusal to release the torture photos despite a world court order to do so was wrong, and his excuses for not doing so (fanning t he flames of anti-Americanism and furthur endangering our troops) were not only wrong, but ludicrous, to boot. On the other hand, not releasing the torture photos will inflame already-existing anti-American sentiment in t he Muslim mideast and the rest of the world and furthur endanger our troops, because they'll end up remaining there much longer, if not indefinitely.
5
My beef with financial services
is they produce very little of tangible long-term value to the economy as a whole. Fundamentally, the role of a bank is to move money from where it's idling (savings) to where it'll do the most good (loans and investments). But the idustry's movers and shakers have deliberately complexified the system with derivitives, tranching, overleveraging and creating a bunch of new "instruments" designed to:
1. Put as many barriers between the investor and the final product as possible, so that most people don't even know what they're investing in ("Baby-eating aliens inc.? Ony four percent of holdings? But they got the biggest return!"). I'm slightly offended with the very term financial product, it's a misnomer. They don't produce anything. A consumer may guage quality of life by the size of their house or the quantity of food they can afford. But there is no inherent value in them having more financial transactions.
2. Make themselves the gatekeepers of the needlessly complicated system. That way they can skim fees and margins on more transactions, and give the consumer the illusion that they're doing a lot of work. I witnessed this big elaborate presentation a while back from an "expert" whose entire point was "it's better to accept higher risk and higher return early in your career and invest more conservatively neer retirement". Wow, stop the presses. Thank god he did a four-year business degree or we'd never have figured that out. Another industry player tells me he now makes most of his money selling life insurance, for which the great deal is if you retire with out dying you get your non-indexed premiums back (relying on the suckers who can't figure out compound interest).
The French and Germans derisively refer to this as "Anglo disease" because of the predominance of financial services in the US and UK's economy. They're a bit xenophobic and hypocritical, but they have a point. Gutting your own manufacturing and technological base in favor of smooth-talking leeches is hardly sustainable for such a large diverse country.
I hear ya on Iraq an Afganistan. I certainly haven't become a cheerleader for the missions simply because I have more faith in the new CinC. I had hoped he'd draw down troops in Iraq faster. He seems to give too much deference to the wishes of the neocons who committed the giant blunder in the first place. We can't all get along, and sometimes you have to step on some toes. Even if it means appearing spiteful.
And yes, release the goddamn photos. Never mind who they will inflame and offend. The people are sovereign and they have a right to know. Americans like war a bit too much, perhaps understandably because we have such a powerful military and the accompanying temptation to use it. We also need to see what war can do to people.
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